Difference between revisions of "User talk:Djonni"

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: If you hadn't yet realised, you're actually talking to a professional programmer here. Work in mixed C, C++, C#, .NET, xml, Python, LabVIEW, building both libraries and applications for wide and varied platforms using some... uh... pretty hacky toolchains, much of which is custom. Other languages for hobby projects. I wear two hats though really, programmer by day and part-time English teacher. A uniquely apt combination for contributing to a pun-rich wiki, heh. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 19:38, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
: If you hadn't yet realised, you're actually talking to a professional programmer here. Work in mixed C, C++, C#, .NET, xml, Python, LabVIEW, building both libraries and applications for wide and varied platforms using some... uh... pretty hacky toolchains, much of which is custom. Other languages for hobby projects. I wear two hats though really, programmer by day and part-time English teacher. A uniquely apt combination for contributing to a pun-rich wiki, heh. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 19:38, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
:: Honestly, I figured as much. While I’m not a ''professional'' programmer, I do have decent experience with nearly all of the languages you mentioned (and programming is my major). I’m also particular about grammar. So, the hobbyist equivalent...?
:: I don’t think there are templates here that use camel case. I just more meant in general, not using hyphens, I’d kind of like to see <code>nospaces</code> be <code>no-spaces</code> (which is more what I was talking about), but... — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 19:50, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Revision as of 19:50, 18 December 2019

Ralph wave.gif

Hi, friend or stranger! You've found your way to my Talk page. I'm GodDjonni , and this is one of the ways you can get in touch with me about anything game or wiki related. If you leave me a note here, I'll reply here. You can click here to start a conversation with me about a new topic below. If you prefer you're also welcome to add me as a friend in the game and message me directly there. I'll reply equally promptly to either.

You'll also note, if you're a little experienced in how the wiki works, that my page is not in the User: namespace. This is on purpose — I'm perfectly happy for others to make changes to my page. If I have a problem with it I'll just undo the edit, just like any other page. And if for whatever reason I'm not around, then it doesn't really matter anyway!

This page has an archive

Old and/or inactive discussions have been moved to the /Archive subpage.

(Actually I'm a bit late, but close enough...)

🎶 Twenty, twenty, twenty-four hours to go... 🎵 (Note: Offsite link)

...This also serves as a demonstration of the easily-abused power of class="plainlinks", which I shall now apply to the wiki-local URL links in the hatnotes and JanuWiki 2019 article. (Dunno why I didn't think of this before.) -- FeRDNYC (talk) 23:08, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

JanuWiki side job progress

A question that occurred to me, regarding side job progress — how can "best five" contests have _progress_? The judging can't take place until the end of the event, at which point it goes from 0% to 100% pretty much instantly. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 00:38, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

I see your point... I added a heading "Side job candidate articles" to each, and may scrap the "Progress" {{diaryquest}}s, but I wanted to give your new |side= formatting an airing ;) -- Djonni (talk) 22:53, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

bullet-wrap not working in {{Navbox list}}

Hey, it looks like {{Navbox list|bullet-wrap=yes}} isn't working — I pulled the list transclusion for the JanuWiki navbox quests into Special:ExpandTemplates and the generated output is identical with or without the bullet-wrap param. (Here's the code I tested:)

{{Navbox list|bullet=🍻|bullet-wrap=yes
| [[Brew a storm in a teacup]]
| [[Deliver some sour gnomish beer to the dark elves]]
| [[Find out how to turn a golden brick into a pint of beer]]
| [[Sing all of “99 bottles of beer on the wall!”]]
| [[Sit in a tavern and write fake diary entries]] <span style{{=}}"font-size: x-small; display: inline-block; vertical-align: middle;">✔</span>

Ideally what I'd like to be able to do, is tell it to format the items without the white-space:nowrap, but still tie the bullets themselves to the item they follow with a non-breaking space before them. It wasn't entirely clear to me whether that was possible (or supposed to be possible) with the template, and certainly "|bullet-wrap=yes" sounds like a strange way to express that sort of thing if it is. But the syntax is unimportant right now, the question of if/how is what matters.

...Anyway, as a result of the big, nowrap-styled quest titles, the JanuWiki navbox is formatting way too wide on mobile and sticking off the edge of the screen. Think you could take a look when you have a moment? Thx!

Oh, totally unrelated to this, and of absolutely no urgency whatsoever, but See Also: my idea at Template talk:Navbox list when you've got a few moments (which might not be until February, and totally understandable if that's the case). -- FeRDNYC (talk) 10:36, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, I noticed you added |bullet-wrap=yes to {{Navbox JanuWiki 2019}}, and it reminded me that the semantics of the two wrapping options at {{Navbox}} isn't great is terrible.
I had the "clever" idea of making Template:Navbox list/Space hold a space character — the idea being, if we decided to replace every &#32; space in every navbox list with a &thinsp;, or &ensp;, or whatever, we just change that one thing. In retrospect that's not easier than simply coding the space into the template, so I might rewrite it a bit, since that makes it difficult for me to do the behaviour you've described without mediawikiwiki:Module:String installed. But as I'm typing this a possibility occurs to me...
Would this achieve the expected behaviour? [[Long multi-word navbox list item]]<span style="white-space: nowrap;"> •</span> [[Next long link]] 🤔 I'll have to have a bit of a play with that.
I also saw your suggestion at Template talk:Navbox list, which I'll answer over there... apologies for reading without acknowledging. I've thought about it though, and my conclusion is that (even though it would be a bit of work to overhaul now) having {{Navbox list}} apply wiki-linking to the entries is not only obvious, but always should have been the default behaviour. More over there.
Soooo yeah, that might wait until after JanuWiki 😅 but in order to make the quests in the JanuWiki navbox more functional I'll work on that, uh... soon. -- Djonni (talk) 16:41, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
And no, [[Long multi-word navbox list item]]<span style="white-space: nowrap;"> •</span> [[Next long link]] doesn't seem to behave as I'd hoped, the bullet wraps as if the <span>...</span> isn't there. Back to the drawing board. I think I'll just have to drop support for |space= and simply hard-code the spaces. -- Djonni (talk) 17:08, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

JanuWiki 2019 post-mortem

Hi Djonni, I'm FeRDNYC. With JanuWiki 2019 wrapped up, we're having a post-mortem discussion over at its talk page to get a handle on what worked, what didn't, and what lessons we can learn for future events. As a participant in the event, your insights would be invaluable. We'd love it if you could share any feedback you might have. Feel free to join us at Talk:JanuWiki 2019! -- FeRDNYC (talk) 23:08, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Hello from Lelotif

Sorry to appear like this but I wanted to say thank you for polishing my Demotivational Speaker page. That monster was the first of many monsters I wanted to bring to life but lacked the level. And, if you don't mind, could you teach me how to upload images? I made one for my Frost Mite. Again, thank you and sorry to intrude. --Lelotif (talk) 19:33, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Hey there! Hope you don't mind that I moved this here, a User talk: page (like this one) is where these conversations traditionally happen. Your User talk:Lelotif page will be where other wiki users are likely to leave any notes for you. :)
And you're very welcome, I enjoyed both Demotivational Speaker and Frost Mite! I was a touch distracted today so I hope my edits were good and my summaries weren't too brusque, heh.
And I'm delighted to help with pictures, or anything at all. There's a bit on pictures in the Creators Manual, which should be in decent shape... I haven't logged at it in a while but I know WardPhoenix have the guidelines a lot of love recently so they've been in good hands!
For Frost Mite, though, I've made it especially easy for you by popping a blank {{monster}} template on there ready to fill in. If you open the Frost Mite page for editing, you'll find the parameters of the monster template at the top ready to fill in. Replace the text that says <!--An image filename (e.g. Example_picture_name.jpg). If the filename doesn't exist, this gives you a link to upload it. --> with a suitable filename — say, frost-mite.jpg, or whatever — then save the changes. Where the default picture was in the monster template you'll now have a clickable link that will take you straight to the right place to upload the file. Tahdah!
If you have any trouble or questions, add me and I'll talk you through it, or reply here, or leave a note on Help:Requests, or ask anyone whose name appears in Special:RecentChanges regularly making the kind of edits you want to ask about (everyone's pretty friendly around here) 😊
And most of all, keep it up and have fun making creative, interesting, and funny content for the entire game community (and beyond) to enjoy. Personally, I know that contributing to and reading the wiki has expanded what I get out of (and put into) Godville in immeasurable ways. --Djonni (talk) 20:58, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

My Godwiki Page

Howdy, I'm The Quantus, I've kinda just made my Godwiki page.

To be honest I think it's pretty good, content-wise at least.

Was hoping you'd cast an eye over it. Edit away if you have time. Give me advice if you've less time. Tell me it's wrong if you have no time, but could you tell my why it's wrong if that's the case 😊

I'd kinda like it to be perfect!

Cheers in advance!

The Quantus — Preceding comment added by The Quantus (talkcontribs) 8 September 2019‎

Hi there The Quantus! I moved your nice comment here to my proper User talk:Djonni page, as Talk:Djonni is supposed to only be a redirect page to here. :)
Now, to your question. I'm definitely happy to take a look at your page, and have tried now twice to do so and keep getting interrupted. So, this is me saying I'll absolutely take a look, as soon as I have 15 uninterrupted minutes... Promise!
(P.S. If you end your talk page messages with this: -- ~~~~ it will come out looking like this:) -- Djonni (talk) 16:28, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
Thanks, this really is my first wiki edit experience. Just booted up the old laptop, as i'm mainly a windows mobile user. I know! And yeah... i understand none of the code side i'm seeing apart from kinda the code/codenowiki/nowiki stuff, or if i'm replying properly. To be honest this is also a test message as well as a thank you. -- The Quantus (talk) 18:31, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
Your replies are fine! You might notice that adding a : at the very start of a line indents it one level. It's customary to indent a reply one level below what you're replying to, so it's much easier for readers to follow a thread. Otherwise, you're good. :)
As for the code and nowiki stuff... <code>text</code> just formats a span of text like this to distinguish it metatextually as some kind of code, symbol, or keyboard input. The <nowiki>something here</nowiki> indicates to the wiki software that something here is not to be interpreted as code of any kind (wiki, html, or otherwise) and is to be printed to the page exactly as it is. Sometimes you'll see it as <nowiki /> with no content for fancy reasons of tricking the wiki software into behaving some specific way, or tricking it into not recognising something (like, for example, if I actually want the first character in the line to be a :, I could do <nowiki />: or <nowiki>:</nowiki>, whichever I like.). You're not likely to need that unless for some reason you decide to get right into the deep nuts and bolts of some of the more complex templates. (A template, by the way, is {{one of these}}. You are using the {{usergod}} template on your user page, for example.)
To which! Your user page. :)
It can be tricky to give feedback on a user's godwiki page, 'cause really, you should be making it into whatever the hell you like! A narrative chronicle (like yours), a temple to your towering ego (like mine), an anal retentive painstaking record of your hero(ine)'s life (like so many are), an absurd self-parody of your quixotic obsessions (like mine), a densely nested collection of in-jokes and mutual admiration (like so many are), any or all of the above in combination and more. It can really be anything you want. I see you've started adding templates and formatting, which is great, and which I was going to suggest after my first glance. You appear to be an old school HTML guy, as I note you're using hard-coded HTML bold and italics tags (<b>...</b> and <i>...</i>) and even *wince* <u>...</u>.
Now... don't get me wrong, it ain't lip service that you can do as you like with your user page. There are some godwiki user pages that are enthusiastic and unabashed monstrosities of design gone wrong. And that's cool, no problem. But there are some pretty good reasons to not use <b>, <i>, or *shudder* <u>. If you're curious and interested, you can do some reading about why (here's a decent brief explanation), but there's a quick guide to formatting text on the Creators Manual § Formatting. Rather than using <b><u>Heading</u></b> for headings, I suggest you use the wikicode that makes it an actual heading:
==The Cautionary Tale of Roderick the Blind==
Which becomes:
The Cautionary Tale of Roderick the Blind
People using bad screens, small screens, or people with vision impairment, or people who simply use screen readers for convenience will thank you for not using manual formatting, and letting the wiki take care of it. And if you do decide to keep expanding your page with more sections, those headers will become the table of contents automagically. The more =s you use, the smaller (lower level) the heading is. More explanation at Creators Manual § Headers.
Now, that's formatting out of the way. I won't give unsolicited input on content, so if you'd like that kind of input then say so and I can do it here or privately. But, suffice to say I enjoyed your origin story so far! It's the kind of story you might actually find in a god's chronicles, which is a feature of the game you may or may not have discovered yet! The Pantheon of Storytelling is the pantheon that recognises the best chronicles on Godville, and you might find reading some of the highly rated chronicles on the 🏆 Storytelling  pantheon a way to spark inspiration for more of your own creativity. I love reading good chronicles, and I'm often amazed at how interesting and funny some of our fellow deities can be.
If you do decide to transplant your writing from your wiki page to your chronicle (found at the bottom of your GodThe Quantus  god page), do note that the formatting there is different again (details found at the bottom of the Hero's Chronicles page). Some people like long chronicles, some like short, so don't try too hard to please the crowds and just put there what you feel is your best contribution! :)
Please don't hesitate to ask for any more input, or any more questions you have. I'm always delighted to help, and it's a good distraction when work's frustrating. ;) -- Djonni (talk) 11:48, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
Additional: Hah! I actually looked, and noticed that that actually is your chronicle, and that it's all nicely formatted over there and everything. Nice! -- Djonni (talk) 11:52, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
Well! I can see why you're on the help list! Damn near perfect response, thank you.
Formatting: No problem on switching, if it suits the more modern :P way of doing things more than happy to learn. Plus it's a page of my very own to mess about on. Good spot on old school! You've no idea! However I'm spotting quite a few similarities. Which is nice, i don't have to travel to far from my pterodactyl. Going to slowly add links (in a wiki fashion) and other flourishes as I find them. One thing i seem to be missing is how to move text down a line without it being either a new paragraph or bullet point of some kind. Would it have to be indented kinda like these chat paragraphs? I'd prefer not, but i could live with it.
The Good Stuff: I've really no problem with grammar, or even style, tips or criticism! Let me know what you think. I'm not done with the page, more sections now need to be added. However let loose on what's there. The middle section of the chronicles part bothers me, seems a bit 'rushed' perhaps more action to balance the introductions and consequences? Or even just a small re-write, flesh it out a bit?
Really looking forward to what you have to say. -- The Quantus (talk) 21:20, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Hah, well, this is one way your OG HTML [1,2] knowledge will help. The way to make a line break without a new paragraph is the same now as it always was: <br /> :)

(The old <br> will work fine too, just that the semantics of markup require that anything that's opened must be closed. So, a single tag with no content must close itself. Hence, />, making a self-closing tag, like with <nowiki />, and another you'll see used at the bottom of every page with footnotes or references, <references />)

A bit later today (probably) I'll give your page a content read then! I had zero experience with wikis when I started fooling around on here, and was patiently and supportively guided by others who, I'm sad to say, are now mostly inactive. (But such is the nature of Godville, they may return one day. I'm certainly been guilty of taking long unannounced sabaticals, heh.) But we now have a small team of active editors, as well as gnomes and gardeners. We are all friendly and helpful, without exception, and will leave notes on talk pages or tinker with edits where we see a way to improve or advise.

Some little pieces of advice that have given me a deep understanding of the wiki over time, some (or many or all) of which you may already be all over:

  • Keep you eyes on Special:RecentChanges. On mobile, it's in the links at the very bottom of the page. On desktop, it's in the links at the left-hand side. You'll notice that the majority (by far) of edits to the wiki are to guild pages, and then after that probably edits to user pages. Both of those are probably very interesting to you right now, but will quickly become less interesting than all the other edits going on. Edit summaries should give brief explanations, and you can use the history of the page to see precisely what changes are made. (The history function on mobile is terrible and semi-broken, so if you can't figure out what's going on look at it on desktop.)
  • The Godwiki is a plain, run-of-the-mill MediaWiki wiki with very few extensions nor bells 'n whistles beyond the basic set. So, that means that there's a metric butt-tonne of helpful information out there about how a wiki like that works, starting and usually ending with the afore-linked MediaWiki wiki. Want a thorough understanding of image options? mediawikiwiki:Help:Images' gotcha covered. Want the fine detail on how <ref>...</ref> and <references /> work? mediawikiwiki:Extension:Cite, boom. My first strategy when I can't remember or need to learn something about the wiki is the google "mediawiki feature or keyword" and follow whatever is the top result from mediawiki.org or wikipedia.org (in that order of preference).
  • For your user page (and I note you've started tinkering with your guild's page too, great!), the most interesting collection of templates to begin with will be the formatting templates. Each of them is (hopefully) well-documented, and if they aren't, they should be, as they'll be often looked at by wiki newbies who are coming to grips with what all this junk is and how it works. Don't be afraid to look under the hood at the code, though do be afraid to save changes, as they are usually used very widely across the wiki and it would be pretty easy to break a lot of pages, eheh. But if you are looking at an interesting template, like, say, {{Diaryquest}}, and you want to see examples of how it's used in the wild, you can hit "What links here" (LHS on desktop, page bottom on mobile) to see where it's used. (For some templates that will be a VERY long list.)
  • That said... though mucking about with the live versions of very widely used templates is unwise, generally speaking, messing about with pretty much anything on the wiki is pretty safe. Every single edit can be undone with two or three clicks. Simple as that. As long as your tinkering doesn't violate the rules, there's really no way to break the wiki's eggs so much that they can't be unscrambled within seconds. One major caveat to that, however, is your own User page. You are the only person with permission to edit your User page in any way. That's a blessing and a curse, since it's protected from anyone else making changes, which means it's sadly protected from anyone else making changes for you. :) But you always have the option to undo an edit (on desktop, in page history).

🤔 This was just gonna be a quick, short note, and as usual I've gone from short note to extended lecture. Must drink coffee and get ready for work. More anon! -- Djonni (talk) 05:35, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Hoping my indents are right there <- i toyed with popping lots of :'s </notanemoji></sarcasmcodetoo> on, but you'd reset the 'start point' and i figure - keep it simple? Thanks once again for the response. I got away for the weekend, so mine is a tad delayed. However again you covered everything. I've been looking through the templates and various wiki codes and am getting quite excited.
Whilst I think my page is now pretty much going to be fun content to add now. The topic of my guildpage has caused a touch of discussion in the DA's guild council (great place to hang out btw - guild plugged). One thought was, as it's quite old, and from the original DA members, should we archive it? If the group consensus turns this way, what would the prefered method of doing this be? I'm guessing starting a new page - calling it the DA guild original archive or something (better name needed) and copy pasting all the older data into it?? With appropriate notes and references? I.e. "if you're looking for...."
On the other hand: I'm pushing more for an update, an addition of information rather than a re-start. I'm hoping to incorporate all the info that's there at the moment, maybe smarten it up (i'm enticed by the collapse-able tables). I'm having to wait a little to find out which though. Really hoping its the second though.
Still very much looking forward to a breakdown of my pages content and grammar. Don't feel like you'll offend. Criticism breeds improvement! Plus i'll have something to strive for as i add to it. -- The Quantus (talk) 13:39, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

Article Deletion

I was sure that I'd seen page deletion activity recently. On checking admin contributions though, there is no evidence of this (unless I'm looking in the wrong place). -- S624 (talk) 19:09, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

The place to look would be in Special:Logs, but nobody but the Devs has the permissions for that. You're right that they do delete pages that are somehow a problem — vandalism and spam pages have been removed in the last month or two, and I know that historically pages with inappropriate or copyrighted material have been deleted, if an edit isn't enough. But there are 179 items in Category:Marked for deletion, and since User:Spode became inactive, no user has been granted any administrative rights that would allow them to permanently delete a page.
Which, really, isn't that big a deal. A hypothetical future admin would have a lot of other priorities, like giving the wiki CSS a badly needed upgrade, selectively popping in some useful, low-risk extensions (mediawikiwiki:Extension:Thanks, Scalable Vector Graphics support, etc etc etc...), fixing some of the, erm... quirks of image cache timeouts, and a bunch of other under-the-hood stuff. And honestly, we manage okay without a user admin, and I know that I for one wouldn't really want the responsibility/blame that would come with it, haah! 😉 -- Djonni (talk) 13:41, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
In a related note, if you think that there's something on the wiki that really needs the Devs to intervene to delete content or limit a user's access, like spam, vandalism, or discriminatory, offensive, or otherwise inappropriate content, my advice is to submit an Other into Ideabox with the details. They have always responded promptly to my requests there, if necessary. -- Djonni (talk) 16:38, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarifications / confirmations on recent page deletions Djonni. I run into the access issue on Special:Logs as well. -- S624 (talk) 18:29, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
Oh hey, it turns out we can see the deletion log, just not the general log! Special:Log/delete -- Djonni (talk) 07:29, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Blanking pages

Regarding the previous discussion I could easily answer yes to that question, but that would be a lie. I already restored the pages and i am sorry for what i have done. Do what you must. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zelthal the Hollow (talkcontribs) 25 October 2019‎

Well, seeing as you've self-corrected the problem, I personally don't see any reason why further steps should be taken, though you should be aware that any user of the Godwiki can see every edit that's made and will make their own decision about whether it should be reported. That includes GodFalsakhar  themself, who will be able to see the full history of every affected page, and this conversation.
I would also suggest that you undo the fourth edit you made, (Tick.png Done -- Djonni (talk) 09:26, 26 October 2019 (UTC)) which was removing a legitimate (if out of date and unanswered) question that Falsakhar asked on BlueStapler's talk page years ago.
The lesson here is that the Godwiki is not the place to take personal issues between players, nor is it the place for any practical jokes or pranks which violate the rules or create confusion or nuisance for other players. That said, you did the right thing to undo your vandalism yourself, so well done for that.
Note to reader: This conversation is a continuation of User talk:Zelthal the Hollow#Blanking pages that may belong to another God regarding the blanking of content belonging to Falsakhar. -- Djonni (talk) 10:33, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Question from Sand Devil 4-medal laurel(U • C • T) 

Just curious, you changed my template? Sand Devil (talk)

Yeah, it had an empty {{doc}} template that was causing Template:Sand Devil/Documentation to appear in the Special:WantedTemplates report. You can see the changes here.
You're obviously welcome to undo the edit and add documentation to your template if you like. You can either create Template:Sand Devil/Documentation, or, probably easier, is to add |content=Your documentation text goes here. to the {{doc}}, like: {{doc|content = Your text}}. -- Djonni (talk) 14:13, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
It was a question, not a critique. Thank you for the explanation. I wish I could remember why I felt the doc template was necessary, but that desire has passed. You all are doing fine work and I see no reason to undo it, but because I like doing things correctly, I have to ask. --Sand Devil (talk) 17:04, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
Mmm of course! I learned everything the same way — watching what's happening around the wiki and either puzzling it out or asking why. I never mean to discourage questions, sorry if my response seemed curt, I was simply distracted. I usually throw in more smileys and stuff. 😅

User:Djonni/Template sandbox Question

In fact, if you want to get involved with some testing and feedback on the improvements being made to major templates, please feel free to give the draft replacement for the {{Usergod}} template a whirl, it's currently at User:Djonni/Template sandbox. If you want to use the draft on your Sand Devil page and play with it, just replace {{usergod| heroine = Bella Rebe|...}} with {{User:Djonni/Template sandbox| heroine = Bella Rebe|...}}. I've fully documented my changes, so you can play with the new parameters, set colors and styles, whatever. If you want to see some examples of it, I've been using it on my User page for a while now, and WardPhoenix has been testing it at User:WardPhoenix/Sandbox as I've made changes and improvements. I've also made myself a testbed of what it will do to a sample of existing inactive users' God pages at User:Djonni/Sandbox (though fair warning, that page is big and messy). In fact, come to think of it, unless something unexpected comes up from immediate feedback, making the documentation more user-friendly is probably the last thing left to do before opening it up for testing and feedback by anyone interested. So if you want to, please don't hesitate to give it a good try, and give me any feedback on the template itself, the parameters and their behaviour, or the documentation! -- Djonni (talk) 17:32, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Very colorful, very flexible, lots of parameters to get lost in. I LIKE IT! Can you change the font colors? --Sand Devil (talk) 20:37, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

You can, using the areastyle parameters which, I realise now, I need to sort out for the three subsections. Tomorrow I'll try to get those working properly and then I'll explain how to change the text colour for parts of the box (like, say, the guild section you have coloured a dark brown on your user page!) 😊 -- Djonni (talk) 21:55, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
Alright! So, I've greately expanded the flexibility of how customisable the subsections are. I've briefly documented the parameters at User:Djonni/Template sandbox#Subsection style parameters, but essentially, I've made it possible to insert your own custom CSS into the various parts of the table. So, if you want to change the text colour of the Guild subsection of your table, add this to your template wikicode: |guildstyle=color: CSS colour value;.
CSS colour values are very flexible. I don't know how much you know about HTML and CSS, but you can set hex colour values or specify colour names. I see you've used hex codes for the colurs you've got, but if you want to look look at the full range of options, try htmlcolorcodes.com, it's one of many helpful sites for this kind of thing.
Looking at the dark colours you're using in the Guild block, you might find that |guildstyle=color: lightgrey; works well for you. However, you'll notice that doesn't change the colour of the link to the guild page — unfortunately that's beyond our control on the wiki. (In short, we humans don't want spambots to be able to create pages on wikis with hidden deceptive links, so the wiki clamps down on any changes to link styles. It's very important, and a little annoying.)
But otherwise, the |guildstyle=, |guildheaderstyle=, |guildlabelstyle= and |guilddatastyle= parameters will let you go crazy with any CSS styling you want. The only immovable object is the styling and colouring of links; otherwise, make it as crazy, ugly, or awesome as you want! -- Djonni (talk) 17:05, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

User:Djonni/Template sandbox Suggestion

Just a thought, maybe for the template (Probably better on the hero, but still thinking overall), have a section of goals. Goal 1 build temple by Christmas. Goal 2: Be in the top 100 of duels. Goal 3: Seeking honored coach achievement medal.

The idea is, written goals given a sense of direction and increases sense of satisfaction when done. Especially if there is a completed option. More importantly, for some achievements, like coaches, it would let others know that you are interested in coaching.

I know this could be done by custom, but a demonstration on how would probably better. Maybe something that a beginner would be more willing to use.

It's early, I'm barely at my coffee, so I'll be ok if you let me know this idea is too half-baked....

Myabe there is a better way for coaches, probably cat -- willing sparrers, with most likely to be availabe... hmm... .coffeee....

--Sand Devil (talk) 14:27, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Mmm, I'm pretty open to adding more sections if there's a demand for it. No ideas are bad ideas, as far as I'm concerned!
That said... the template is already big, and adding more sections and parameters that won't be used isn't particularly helpful to anyone, as it simply bloats the documentation needlessly, and makes the template harder to deal with for anyone who wants to work on it in future. So what I'm going to be looking for is a user-led, and usage-led, process. Users, of course, includes you 😊
What I'd suggest for this or any idea about what should be built into the template is for folks to use the custom section to build what they actually *want* their infobox to display. Your suggestion of a demonstration of some custom section arrangements is a good idea, I'll have to think about a reasonable way to do that. I was already considering a style gallery.
Perhaps once the new template is in place and working, these are things which would live on the Guideline: God Articles page (which now contains very little), and we can see what people really want from the template by what they use. Feel free to start designing examples in a sandbox if you want, there's nothing preventing the test template from being called with only a custom section, and if you paste a second copy of the template between <pre>...</pre> tags people will see the code (as in the test template docs, see for example). You may also wish to pop a |nocat=yes into the template examples that aren't your real infobox, or your sandbox with end up in [[Category:Gods]]. Leave it out of the visible code between the <pre>...</pre> tags though, or people will think they need it to use the example. Hope that makes sense.
There's a pretty real chance that the options and sections it has now won't get used much, so the proof will be in the pudding, I think. But the more ideas people can see and use easily, the more likely they are to be inspired! 😊 -- Djonni (talk) 18:11, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
Thanks a lot for the tip, your template is User friendly and highly customisable though I worry it might be quite hard for people who don't already have a good grasp of how the wiki including work, might I ask if you intend to make an easier version, which would look a bit more complete than the first one because the template is so nice I wouldn't want people to think it's too hard for them and to still use the old Usergod/Usergodess template.
--Arkhen Thean (talk) 21:02, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Well, the plan is to replace {{Usergod}} and {{Usergoddess}}, so everybody will be using the new template. And you're right, it will be important to write really clear and easy docs for new folks to use it, when it's out of testing. I'll probably break the docs into two sections, a very easy beginner section at the top, and an advanced section for those who want to dig right into the fancy parts. :) Thanks for the comment, it's good to be reminded that some beginners might find it too hard to use! -- Djonni (talk) 21:33, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
My initial thoughts were that I didn't at all like it but that was a couple of weeks ago. The amount of options are a bit overwhelming & I don't see myself using most of them, or any of the colour choice options. That being said, I'm sure there was a discussion that the icon beside the Guild label could be changeable. Is that right, or can it be hidden? -- S624 (talk) 20:44, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Yeah, I definitely great what you're saying about the uptime being overwhelming. Writing clear, easy, beginner-friendly docs is the next big challenge. And I wouldn't expect any one person to use most of the options!

The icons can be absolutely be suppressed, with |emoji=no. (Does |icons=no make more sense?) That'll switch off the symbols to the left of both Guild and Pantheon headers. -- Djonni (talk) 05:50, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for taking it into consideration. |icons=no would make more sense to me. -- S624 (talk) 08:36, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
Done. {|icons=no should now work for you. Let me know if it doesn't work as expected. -- Djonni (talk) 08:42, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
Added & works as expected. Many thanks. -- S624 (talk) 08:45, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Interwiki link test

Unless you are Godville Admin, please ignore this :)

mediawiki:Unexpected leads to an unexpected URL.

metawiki:Unexpected leads to a really unexpected URL.

This is an example of labelled for reuse image searching.

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Boa constrictor image

I see you removed File:A boa constrictor digesting an elephant.png from delete saying you use it on your user page (which isn’t a problem). It was on the unused images report and didn’t seem relevant to the site which is why I added the template. I’m just confused. It doesn’t appear to be there currently, am I blind, or is it not there? Do you have it on there only every so often (EG: every Christmas or something)

I’m only really asking because I’m curious and because I have it on User talk:Emptysora/dummy (heads up, there’s 800+ image thumbnails on the page, it’s not mobile friendly) to remove it from Special:UnusedFiles. If I remove it from the dummy page, it’ll just go back on the unused files report. That’s why I’m asking.

I’ll keep it there if you want so it doesn’t show on the report as that is the purpose of that page. Just curious/confused.

Bizarre image, btw. (;一_一)

Emptysora (talk) 06:24, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

If you look again tomorrow, you'll see it there, and again 6 days later. (Sometimes less often, sometimes more often, as I add and remove things from the rotation.) The header section of my user page changes itself dynamically every day. (Sometimes more often than every day, but that's another story.) I'll think of a way to make the image appear as "in use" on the page (and keep it off the unused image report) so that if anyone looks at the file in future they'll see it associated with the page, even in days it's not featured.
And yes, it is. Does it frighten you? -- Djonni (talk) 06:47, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Ah, I figured it might’ve been something like that. I’m not sure how you’ll be able to without adding the images to the page (unless linking to the image instead of embedding it also removes it.)
Whenever you get it working feel free to remove the image from my dummy page (that’s why it’s in User talk and not User) as with any other images, categories, and templates I throw in there if they’re removed from the site or unmarked from the deletion category. I moved the boa image all the way to the bottom of the gallery so you don’t have to fish through the page for the link.
Actually, I just thought of something. We could move the dummy to the main namespace and add it to Maintenance. Does that sound like a good idea? (It basically is a maintenance page at this point) I only thought of this because if we end up using the page regularly, it shouldn’t be in my User talk section, really.
I wouldn’t say it frightens me, it’s just not something I expected to see in the list of images, heh.
A boa constrictor digesting an elephant
Emptysora (talk) 07:07, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
maybe if you put the picture in the page as a 1x1 frameless image that would be enough to hide it somewhere...? (EDIT) That would make it relatively harmless on mobile since it gets thumbnailed to that sizeEmptysora (talk) 07:13, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, the 1x1px frameless was my plan, I thought of it ages ago as a way to keep the image off the unused image list, but since nobody's tried to clean those files up until now I never got around to it. 😊 It's done now, and you'll see from File:A boa constrictor digesting an elephant.png that it's now correctly showing as in use on my page. I'll use the same trick in future if I add other images that don't appear every day. 😊 I took it off the list on User talk:Emptysora/dummy too. -- Djonni (talk) 09:35, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── To be honest, I didn’t think I would be doing it either. I’m honestly surprised with how active I’m being on this wiki right now, it’s pretty uncharacteristic of me, given I usually just do grammar/spelling/technical edits most of the time. The Category:Marked for deletion category has grown in size quite a bit... But, meh. I digress. — Emptysora (talk) 09:51, 20 November 2019 (UTC)


Thanks for fixing the issue about the unintended categorization! Has some head scratching on that one when I worked on that yet to complete template. Thanks to you, we now have one more useless category to delete 😂. -- WardPhoenix (talk) 23:16, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Err. I hope I’m not raining on your parade: Category talk:Articles which use infobox templates with no data rows. — Emptysora (talk) 01:22, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
Mmm, unfortunately I don't think we can delete the category just because we've emptied it this time 😅 -- Djonni (talk) 04:00, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Infobox / How do I ...

How do I get the Title bar to look the same as the other title / label bars? For reference, see Sand Devil? I have future plans for this, but for now, taking baby steps to see how to work it. --Sand Devil (talk) 18:20, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Heh, it can be tricky at first!
You've done |customdata6={{User:Sand Devil/Temple}}, so the title of the child infobox is being formatted as if it's a data cell. Change it to |customheader6={{User:Sand Devil/Temple}} and it'll look like a header. 😊 -- Djonni (talk) 18:52, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
It's the little things that kill you. I looked through it so very carefully, didn't realize I changed it from header to data. Even got the style to be rowstyle to support the header..... Oh well, it works now, thank you very much! --Sand Devil (talk) 19:05, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
Eheheh, I do that kind of thing constantly. Most of my edits are fixing my other edits.
Here's the helpful insight: when |child=yes, the contents of |title= are just output directly as text into the containing cell. So, you format the cell you embed the child infobox into as you want that header to appear.
Of course, since you used |customrowstylen= you probably figured that much out already!
What you're doing, with a transcluded child, is my vision of how a potential Template:Pet could be used as a standalone template, and then also nested into a {{Usergod}}, {{Hero}}, or potential Template: Ark, etc. Make each template modular, and it could be used on its own, embedded, etc. I'm vaguely considering spinning off the Pantheon section in {{Usergod}} to, I dunno, maybe Template:Pantheons, and when {{Guild}} has been redone, a subset of that could be used for the {{Usergod}} Guild section. Which would allow, for example, a guild to keep their {{Guild}} template in a subpage (see, for example, Russia very cleverly using {{:{{BASEPAGENAME}}/statistics}}}} to transclude Russia/statistics), from where guild members could include automagically up-to-date info in their Usergod. Not the whole guild template just dumped on their Usergod, obviously, that would get ridiculous, just the stats.
Anyway. I'm rambling. But it would be pretty cool, I think, to be able to make a subpage for each of your pets if you want, and so when they get retired you simply 'move' them to your {{Ark}}... And so on. These are still only fairly vague ideas for now, and they're big on cool factor without necessarily being features people actually need, or would use in practice 😆 -- Djonni (talk) 19:30, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
My first step was making sure I could make the infobox work, as a child. I'll split it out to a generic template user:Sand Devil/TempleTemplate that could be referenced from anything else. Then keep the Sand Devil/Temple as my specific temple info so I only have to change info once, and affect the hero and god pages. Then I'll do the same to the pets, then the ark. By then, you should be doen with the Hero template changes. Maybe I'll know enough to help you with the guild or other projects. Maybe...--Sand Devil (talk) 19:57, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
Well, you mentioned (in a PM, I think) that you were considering working up a Template:Pet, I think it was. If you were to either do that in a sandbox I could also edit (i.e., not under your User:, so, for example, Sand Devil/Sandbox), or make it to your satisfaction and put it in the no-longer-used Template:Pet page, I could simply make any adjustments necessary for it to work both standalone and embedded.
Ah, pro tip for transcluding from the main namespace. If you do create Sand Devil/Sandbox, you use the colon trick to transclude it. In other words, you use {{:Sand Devil/Sandbox}}, not {{Sand Devil/Sandbox}}, because the second will look for a template at Template:Sand Devil/Sandbox, and fail to find one. (See note above about the Russia page to see the colon trick in use for main namespace transclusion.) -- Djonni (talk) 20:12, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Challenge: do {{:Djonni}}, preview, and then figure out how I did that. ;) -- Djonni (talk) 20:17, 16 December 2019 (UTC) NICE!!! Much more elegant than what I had tried. Very nice... --Sand Devil (talk) 20:23, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Rewrite of Help:Requests/howto

Just finished rewriting Help:Requests/howto to be much more professional and flow better. Do you mind proofreading it? I’d like a second pair of eyes. Also, it’s really late for me, so I probably missed a really dumb typo or autocarrot complaint.

Thanks~ — Emptysora (talk) 08:59, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Sandbox edit for Quote

Just noticed your sandbox edit for Quote. I do think that the align parameter (that I added), does have a use, so it’s not exactly useless. And I’m pretty sure one of my edits actually uses the parameter (hence why I added it). I certainly couldn’t tell you which edit though. The parameter is more useful on desktop with small quotes that completely destroy the flow of a page. (Left aligning the quotes makes it flow better).

There should be a skill article that uses it.

Unless you have a reason to remove it (aside from disuse), I don’t exactly see why we have to remove it. — Emptysora (talk) 17:02, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Disuse was my only reason, I hadn't realised it was a new addition. I assumed it was part of the original design, and so had been available for ~ a decade without being used. Before starting the sandbox I surveyed every transclusion of the template on the Godwiki, and didn't recall any usage of the parameter, so sorry for missing that you added and are using it! It goes back in. 😊 -- Djonni (talk) 17:08, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
Thanks. I mainly added it because the following (when centered, which doesn’t seem to be default now for some reason...) looks atrocious on desktop:
Level 1
short quote
Level 2
short quote
Level 3
short quote
Level 4
short quote

That happened on one of the skill pages i was editing. It made the actual headers look like content, and the content look like headers. It was... ugly. — Emptysora (talk) 17:16, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
Actually, the not default thing might be a weird Minerva quirk now that I think of it.
EDIT (17:27, 18 December 2019 (UTC)): Oh yeah, it’s just a weird Minerva quirk that it wasn’t centered. Ignore my confusion there. — Emptysora (talk) 17:23, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
It must be a Minerva thing, yes. You'll need to be wary of that kind of work when editing on mobile in Minerva!
As for the sandbox, I've got it to minimum viable (as in, behaving like the current quote template, but in flexboxes, not a table), and if you are inclined to test it out, let me know if it behaves badly. -- Djonni (talk) 17:30, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Yeah, thankfully, I don’t do much layout editing (especially horizontal positioning) on mobile. But, I know Minerva has its quirks. Table collapsing doesn’t work either in Minerva...

Honestly, until yesterday, I didn’t even know they had MobileFrontend installed...

In a similar vein, we should also be trying to make sure things work across all themes. I noticed some weird overflow issues in Minerva with the hatboxes yesterday.

I’ll gladly put your edit through the wringer later. I have a few “chores” to do this morning (and then the rest of the day I’m pretty much free). Hope they don’t take too long to complete. :) — Emptysora (talk) 17:46, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Well, the problems with layouts on different mobile CSS skins came up historically, during redesigns of the main page, and the conclusion was that the user fraction who would ever change the mobile skin is an extreme minority (my current educated guess is precisely one user) that can look after their damn selves. 😉 Worrying about desktop vs mobile with default settings is hard enough with the rudimentary tools we have access to. You may not yet have discovered this, but you can't even use Special:MyPage/<skin_name>.css for customisation, as $wgAllowUserCss == false here. -- Djonni (talk) 18:02, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
Heh, one indeed. I wonder who that person could be? I figured AllowUserCss was set to false. Special:Version isn’t even accessible, which makes it difficult sometimes to see what level of “abuse” the wiki will take from you without breaking.
It is hard to test desktop vs mobile with our tools we have been provided, but I still think it’s important as it makes the wiki better. Out of all aspects of programming, my favorite is debugging. It’s fun to see what tiny mistakes cause the most bizarre errors. Fixing said errors is like a puzzle sometimes, and I LOVE Logic Games (I have Slitherlink, Tic-Tac-Logic, and Nurikabe apps on my phone, and they’re pretty much my only games on here.) and Puzzles.
Honestly, the last thing I want is the wiki to fall to disuse since it’s an excellent resource we don’t have to rely on the devs for. That’s most of my motivation for my edits: be more welcoming, make it easier for inexperienced users to edit, and ensure everything works regardless of what we do to it. It’s why I’m a bit insistent about certain things too, like the spaces in template calls. “I like godville, I like GodWiki, therefore I shall contribute.” (Me — My user page)
Despite the last paragraph, I currently do not believe that the wiki is falling to disuse, even if that was implied (probably). We just don’t get edits as frequently as other wikis. And that’s perfectly fine.
Also, for something actually on-topic, thanks for migrating Quote to flexbox. I don’t use flexboxes as much as I should. A bad habit from the HTML4 era... Another bad habit I have is using span + display:block/inline-block when the content should be in a div. — Emptysora (talk) 18:33, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
Ackshually... Since you've brought up about the spaces in template calls. I am, to be candid, really against that, but I've not brought it up as the changes were made in a huge sweep that can't be easily unscrambled, and I realise it's partly just an issue of misaligned (heh) aesthetics, but... Let me explain.
In short, it's just aggressively desktop-centric. I genuinely don't see the value-add in it, not when balanced against the awful pain it creates when doing anything on mobile. It's only a handful of the most frequent and active of us editors that use desktop at all, and for an inexperienced user on mobile (i.e. the overwhelming majority of editors) it's inexplicable and confusing why everything's strangely misaligned and weirdly spaced in aallll those templates.
I haven't brought it up before now, because, as I said, there's an issue with unscrambling the egg, but I think it's an idea that would be great on a different Wiki, with experienced editors reliably using monospaced fonts. But that ain't this wiki, and that ain't our users. I want to at least remove the extra spacing from the copy-paste example templates in the template docs, with your blessing. -- Djonni (talk) 18:46, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
Or, of course, throw it to a wider conversation and see which way the wind blows on the issue. I'm not precious about it, if I'm the only one who feels that way. 🤷‍♂️ -- Djonni (talk) 18:48, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Honestly, after editing more in WPTouch (with its liability to ignore your preferred editor font), and with the fact the majority of the edits are on mobile + WPTouch. I’m inclined to agree with you. At the bare minimum, we should keep \n|_parameter-name_=_value\n. I’ll go through in my spare time and reformat them again, just, please, next time “yell” at me on my user page before I go through all of them (if you can), so we don’t have this unscramble a scrambled egg issue. I’ll try to bring my more mass edits up for discussion as well.

Another thing I would like to suggest is instead of camel case for parameter names (where we use them), we use the hyphenated method (parameter-name instead of parameterName) since the hyphen makes it easier to recognize there’s a word break there. Trust me, I know how much of a nuisance this would be to actually do. Also, on mobile, autocarrot is less likely to bug you if you use the hyphenated method, from my experience.

As long as the spacing and camel case is a thing, I don’t think readability will be much of an issue—on all edit themes. I’d like for you to hold off on editing the template docs and guideline articles for now until we decide what to do. Though, if you agree with this (regardless of feasibility), or have a really good reason to be against it (your discretion, you don’t need my permission to edit), then just go ahead and do the edits. We can discuss the feasibility of this later, after all.

Reasonable method: dual support camel case + hyphenated, migrate pages over to hyphenated, remove camel case.

We really should have a style manual for templates, unless I’m blind and we already have one.

Another thing I wish we had is the visual editor. THAT would certainly solve a lot of these source editor user friendliness issues. Maybe we can do a Feedback > Other submission. Unlike CirrusSearch, Visual Editor is much easier to install. (As are many other nice little extensions I wish we had.) — Emptysora (talk) 19:22, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

I... don't know of any camel case in use in any templates? Neither for parameter names, nor recognised values. If you do know of any, we should definitely investigate and migrate as quickly as possible, but as far as I'm aware all parameter names are all lowercase and either |nospaces= or |hyphenated-words=. Camel/intercaps is not at all mobile friendly, and I would never design/allow camel case parameter names.
If you hadn't yet realised, you're actually talking to a professional programmer here. Work in mixed C, C++, C#, .NET, xml, Python, LabVIEW, building both libraries and applications for wide and varied platforms using some... uh... pretty hacky toolchains, much of which is custom. Other languages for hobby projects. I wear two hats though really, programmer by day and part-time English teacher. A uniquely apt combination for contributing to a pun-rich wiki, heh. -- Djonni (talk) 19:38, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
Honestly, I figured as much. While I’m not a professional programmer, I do have decent experience with nearly all of the languages you mentioned (and programming is my major). I’m also particular about grammar. So, the hobbyist equivalent...?
I don’t think there are templates here that use camel case. I just more meant in general, not using hyphens, I’d kind of like to see nospaces be no-spaces (which is more what I was talking about), but... — Emptysora (talk) 19:50, 18 December 2019 (UTC)