Difference between revisions of "User talk:Djonni"

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::: I have no experience with templates, but I am really curious about how to change the parameter on those two templates without everyone losing their pictures. Also, how do I venture a picture I uploaded? --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 06:23, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
::: I have no experience with templates, but I am really curious about how to change the parameter on those two templates without everyone losing their pictures. Also, how do I venture a picture I uploaded? --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 06:23, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
:::: The change is actually very simple, though without an understanding of how template codes work it'll probably be gibberish, heh. [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=Template%3AGuild&type=revision&diff=121581&oldid=120644 Here's the change to {{tlc|guild}},] if you're interested in looking. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 07:10, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Revision as of 07:10, 13 October 2020

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Hi, friend or stranger! You've found your way to my Talk page. I'm GodDjonni , and this is one of the ways you can get in touch with me about anything game or wiki related. If you leave me a note here, I'll reply here. You can click here to start a conversation with me about a new topic below. If you prefer you're also welcome to add me as a friend in the game and message me directly there. I'll reply equally promptly to either.

You'll also note, if you're a little experienced in how the wiki works, that my page is not in the User: namespace. This is on purpose — I'm perfectly happy for others to make changes to my page. If I have a problem with it I'll just undo the edit, just like any other page. And if for whatever reason I'm not around, then it doesn't really matter anyway!

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Old and/or inactive discussions have been moved to the /Archive subpage.

#switch/automatic switch and featured articles

Hello there!

I am currently trying to build up a new template to replace the current main page featured article, with the idea to have an article randomly choosen every X time (I was thinking going either every week or day), idea that came from your switching header on your page.

Though I have some trouble with the combinaison of #switch and the Template:Random number. I have noticed that the daily one actually switched by itself at some point, I didn't have the same kind of result with the one using seconds, that one not changing at all.

Since trying with week would take ages, I'd go ahead about what you think about seconds not working (cache things?) and it would work with weeks directly.

While I am at it, I would like to have your global opinion on the automatic featured idea. To go more into details, like I said it would switch article automaticaly once in a while, from a premade list (kinda like the list of Template : Cite blog) where we'll add the article worth of being featured (and we could still nominate article to go into that list, or even force an article to be displayed, by having the random being a default but replacable parameter). --WardPhoenix (talk) 13:59, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Ahaaah! I've been watching your experiments, wondering what you were planning to build with randomness! Yes, I can explain everything 😄
If you use a random number source that changes all the time (like {{#time:U}}, {{#time:z}}, etc), the resume will change every single time the page is cached. I use this technique in my header for the horribly (hilariously? Yeah, hilariously) obnoxious "Graphic design is my passion" header to change the colours several times through the day. The Godwiki runs a full cache every few hours — every time the featured image on the main page changes, it's because it's been re-cached and a random number generator was used to pick a fresh image. 😊
So, if you want something to change daily, it's best to use a number source that changes daily. {{Daily choice}}, and all the {{he or she}} templates that use it, does this. So, perhaps it's worth us making a {{Weekly choice}} template for this use? I'm sure once we have it we'll find other creative applications for it... Maybe I'll change my |avatar= once a week now 😁
As for the idea of the rotating featured articles, that seems like a pretty nice idea to me. I think it's at least worth setting it up, running it for a few months, and see how we like it. And I think having a {{Weekly choice}} available opens up other Main Page options too... Perhaps we make a rotating list of the most wanted page, or stubs, to try and catch some more creative engagement right from the front page.
Seems like a solid idea to me! -- Djonni (talk) 16:27, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
So that's why those #time things were not doing what I expected, looks like I gonna have to look at good old magic words then. And I completely overlooked the existence of Template:Daily choice, which seemed a good basis for what I had in mind at first read. Though, from what I am reading and understanding, this template rotates between possibilities rather than selecting randomly between them.
Basically, I need a {{#switch:{{{1}}}|1 = article 1|2 = article 2|n = article n|[...]}} but with the {{{1}}} being randomized every week.
Shouldn't something like {{#ifeq: {{#expr:{{CURRENTWEEK}}mod 2}}|0|{{Template:Random Number}}|{{Template:Random number}} }} generate a random number with every new week? Then I could use that generated number as my {{{1}}}. --WardPhoenix (talk) 19:05, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
{{#switch: {{{1|{{#ifeq: {{#expr:{{CURRENTWEEK}}mod 2}}|0|{{Template:Random number|X}}|{{Template:Random number|X|Y}} }} }}} |0 = test 0 |1 = test 1 |2 = test 2 |3 = test 3 |[...] }} Acutal code I came up with so far. --WardPhoenix (talk) 19:19, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Well, the problem with {{#switch: {{{1|{{#ifeq: {{#expr:{{CURRENTWEEK}}mod 2}}|0|{{Template:Random number|X}}|{{Template:Random number|X|Y}}... is that it still gets called every time the page caches. So, every week it will change between running {{Template:Random number|X}} or {{Template:Random number|X|Y}} with every page cache, but it's still gonna choose a new random number every time, several times a day.
It's true that {{Daily choice}} rotates through the list in order, instead of randomly choosing, but there are good reasons for that (and as I think about it, randomness may not be what we want for the featured article either...). The first reason is randomness is hard. Especially with the kinds of elementary tools available on the the wiki. (Okay, none of what we're talking about is really randomness, it's _psuedorandomness_, but for simplicity I'll keep calling it randomness.) Randomness requires quite large numbers (this is why {{Random number}} uses {{#time: U}}, the number of seconds since Jan 1 1970, because it's a large number: 1635132604). The numbers we have available that will be useful for weekly changes are really far too small to do this well...
Oh crap, I've run out of time... Gotta dash, I'll add more here shortly -- Djonni (talk) 05:36, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Okay, so. Without a real pseudorandom number generator available on the wiki, the best we have are numbers that are large but change predictably — numbers that come from time measurement. So, we approximate randomness by taking those large numbers and using some tricks to get a less predictable result. Typically, this is modulo arithmetic: take a large number of seconds, mod a not-too-small prime, and your remainder is random-ish. You'll notice that the docs for {{Random number}} specify that the prime used there should not be less than 67. You'll also see mod prime sprinkled everywhere through the {{#switch:}} functions on my user page (I use mostly small but carefully chosen primes, because the cases I'm choosing from are also small).

The variables available for weeks are all going to give us really small numbers: {{CURRENTWEEK}} (43), and {{#time: W}} (43) are too small to be useful for randomness at all.

Aha! But I just remembered we have {{Gregorian-serial date}}, we can use that! {{#expr: trunc ({{Gregorian-serial date}} / 7)}} will give us the count of weeks since the start of the Gregorian calendar: 105441! That'll do for our purposes to get a large-ish number that changes weekly.

But there's still a question as to whether randomness is really what we want, for this use. Randomness has some undesirable properties. Let's say that we have 7 articles in our list:

  • Choosing randomly, 1/7 of the time the same outcome will be chosen twice in a row (and 1/7² of the time, three times in a row).
  • Choosing randomly, 1/7 of the time the previous outcome will appear again next (i.e., A, B, A will happen 1 time out of 7).
  • Choosing randomly, some of the choices will not appear for very long periods, while other choices get chosen frequently. After a very long time we would approach a flat distribution, but for the first couple of years it will look more like a normal distribution, and even when the distribution is flat it will include a lot of long streaks of where some articles never appear)

With real programming you can overcome these limitations by, for example, putting the list in a random but semi-stable order, or writing a choice function which is partly random but gives you some frequency guarantees. We can't do that here.

Hence why {{Daily choice}} and my user page use rotation, instead of randomness. We can still go down the random road if you like, but it's worth considering if randomness is really the effect you want. 😊 -- Djonni (talk) 07:08, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

*sad noises** Yeah, I noticed that it was still switching with the cache, here goes my idea *throw the template by the window*. I have three problem with the {{daily choice}} :
1) Like already said, it's a rotation, meaning the order will always be the same no matter what (at some point we'll know that Y article will appear next after the X article, no surprise element) ;
2) If you update the template to add a new article to the list, it will restart the rotation, which could cause some articles to not appear until very late
3) You can't force the presence of one article, in case of special events for example.
That said, maybe changing the whole featured things to automatic isn't the best idea after all. But maybe, instead I could create a premade list of featurable articles that would work like the list of {{cite blog}}?
Meaning, for example, we'd have {{Featured|1}} and the template would grab the article associated to the number 1. It would mean changing it manually, but atleast, once the full list is made, it would be less a pain in the ass to update.
The reason I wanted to change the template was because it became quite difficult to find new articles to feature and because the historic is becoming difficult to read because of it's length. So basically I wanted to get rid of the contraints of taking a new article, and having to retape it every time. Dunno if it's really a good idea, you'll tell me xD (or if you have a better one I'll take it as well!). --WardPhoenix (talk) 12:19, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
Belatedly responding to this :)
the order will always be the same no matter what... no surprise element...: Yes, unfortunately, the only methods I can think of either have the drawbacks of randomness above, or the drawbacks of predictability. But on the other hand, the only people who will know what the order is are the people who edit the templates, which means, well... probably just you and I. It'll still be a surprise to everyone else! And if the list of articles is long enough, I certainly know that I won't remember what's coming next! 😅
If you update the template to add a new article to the list, it will restart the rotation...: Well, not necessarily. If you change the length of the list, it will jump to an unpredictable location (as you'll go from "mod n" to "mod n + 1", so you'll get a different remainder). But if we simply set the length of the list and don't change it, to add new articles to the list you simply have to replace old articles that have been displayed. And worst case, if we do want to enlarge the list without changing the position, because it's predictable we can always manually add an offset.
Say we have a list of 15 articles, and the template is currently showing article 3. We add two more articles to the list, and find that it's now showing article 12. Using modulo-17 arithmetic (17 being the new list length), we know that 12 + 8 = 3, so we can manually adjust our math: {{#expr: (trunc ({{Gregorian-serial date}} / 7) + 8) mod 15}}. That + 8 in the middle there will ensure that we are still showing article 3 after our edit, and article 4 will come next.
You can't force the presence of one article, in case of special events for example...: Sure you can! In fact it's much easier to do this than with a random template, that's one of the advantages of a rotation system. If next week is a special week (say, Christmas) and I want to change the featured article for next week to, say, Satan Claus, I just look at the number of the current article and insert Satan Claus into the next number in the rotation.
If you want to be extra tricky, we can even put a check at the start to make sure today isn't a special date (something like what I did with Template:Navbox list/Bullet), and override the normal rotation for a day/week/month, etc.
And if we have a special event, like a content drive, we can start putting great completed articles into the featured article list as an extra motivator.

That said, maybe changing the whole featured things to automatic isn't the best idea after all. But maybe, instead I could create a premade list of featurable articles that would work like the list of {{cite blog}}? Meaning, for example, we'd have {{Featured|1}} and the template would grab the article associated to the number 1. It would mean changing it manually, but atleast, once the full list is made, it would be less a pain in the ass to update.

So, this is pretty close to how I imagine the rotation would work, except just not manually. :) Inside {{Featured}} would be the system which chooses one of the articles from the list automatically, so that it's not a pain in the ass at all, it simply changes itself automatically. I think it's the best of both worlds.
The historic is becoming difficult to read because of it's length...: Yeah, I think we can probably get rid of it. It's entirely for the benefit of the people who maintain the featured article, and so if it's more trouble for us than it's worth, then it should go. :)
Incidentally, with the rotation system, it remains possible to keep the "Previously featured:" section at the bottom, maintained automatically as well. They're just articles n-1 and n-2 in the rotation.
Honestly, I think the idea is still a great idea, it's just a shame we don't have the tools on the wiki to make it unpredictable the way you originally imagined. I still think having a rotation changing it each week to the next article in a list is a much, much better system than the way we do it now! I'm still positive about the idea. 😊 -- Djonni (talk) 05:18, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
A lot of scrolling was done. Well, thanks for the feedback and informations.Daily choice alike seems the way to go. I'll try sorting up the full template for featured when I can.
May do a weekly choice template also, to have the featured one a little cleaner, if it works as intended. -- WardPhoenix (talk) 22:26, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Updating guild wiki

Hey, I've been updating the guild wiki for my guild, https://wiki.godvillegame.com/Righteous_guild! , and I noticed that at the bottom of the header box there is a little note that says data current as of August 2016. I'd like to change that, but I cannot find any access to that little line of info in the edit tab.

Any help would be great! -- His portliness (talk) 22:58, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

The |date= parameter appears to be the right place - simply find the parameter and change its date accordingly. Hankvi Guidza (talk) 23:00, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
Got it, thanks! -- His portliness (talk) 23:03, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
😁 Glad I could help! 😂
The {{guild}} template has awful parameters, with nonsensical or unsemantic names. It's ugly and unfriendly and difficult for new users to understand, which is especially frustrating as it's one of the templates that is most likely to be interacted with by new and inexperienced wiki users. Unfortunately it's been in use the way it is for 10 years now, and so giving it a renovation/rebuild without breaking a decade's worth of guild wiki pages is going to be... a challenge. 😐 -- Djonni (talk) 05:59, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
Has anyone considered making a new template for future use, and then slowly converting the old guild's wikis? In the more active guilds you can probably get a volunteer to convert their page, in the less active ones, well, just add it to a to-do list lol.
Also, there are many guilds that have been inactive for years and just happen to have whatever random hero floated in, and should probably be deleted anyway.
-- His portliness (talk) 07:06, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
Well, it wouldn't be in the Godwiki spirit to alter a guild page without permission (even for an inactive or vanished guild), and we also don't usually delete the pages for the guilds that have disappeared, though we do mark them as defunct with the badly-named {{delete guild}} template.
The approach we'll need to take is along similar lines to the huge overhaul of the {{Usergod}} template last year. A lot of public notice about the changes in the forums, a long process of making sure we're getting it right, a long period to allow active guild pages to make changes with help. We would have to make a decision together as a community about whether we simply switch old guild pages over to the new infobox without notice, or whether we find a technical means to keep those pages looking the same as they do now, which could be a challenge.
Right now, it's a project I haven't really got the spare attention that it will need 😅 Though if it's going to be done this year, I suppose the clock is ticking. -- Djonni (talk) 09:37, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Totem for righteous guild

Hey, I went to add the new totem for righteous guild but you beat me to it lol

Sunbathing vampire is a stub, how much more info does it need to become a regular page? -- His portliness (talk) 19:16, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Sure did, sorry! I figured that updating the monster page and list of monsters may have slipped your mind 😊
They're no hard and fast rules about what is or isn't a stub. Think of a stub on the Godwiki as simply an invitation to expand it, to contribute creativity somewhere that we see an opportunity for more creativity. If you've added something substantial to an article and you think it's no longer a stub, you can remove the template if you want to Be Bold, and someone may come along and put it back on if they disagree. 😊 Or, if you'd like an opinion and feedback on an article, you can leave a message on Help:Requests to ask other Wikimedia contributors if they think it should no longer be a stub, and for some advice on it.
So no nice clean answer like "4 paragraphs on 3 sentences each", I'm afraid, it's much more along the lines of "we'd love to see someone apply some more creativity here". -- Djonni (talk) 20:17, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
No hard feelings, I'm just trying to fill the large shoes of The Mighty Stang, who, although hasn't ever disappeared from the short term pantheons, has disappeared from actively updating anything. He taught me a bunch when I first joined the game, so I try to keep some parts of the wiki updated. Btw, have you heard from Stang? We were kind of close before he just fell off the map, although he lurks still.
ps, check out the Righteous Guild! wiki page for his shout out :)
-- His portliness (talk) 22:51, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
I didn't know Mighty Stang well I'm afraid, only though reputation and wiki interactions. But it's a general trend that I've noticed this year — many of the most established, most active, and most beloved members of the game community have stepped back a little, as the world we live in becomes harder to, well, live in. Of the, say, 10-15 most active and prominent community participants this time last year I can probably think of 5 or 6 that are still really active at the moment. Everyday life's just been taking a lot more of our attention and energy, and for those who enjoyed giving a lot of that attention and energy to the game and its community, there's just not so much to spare, now.
But I predict that a large number of those players will return, slowly. That's the cycle I went through this year; my burdens were weighted towards the start of this year (so far, inshallah), and I slowly returned to being almost as active as I was. My advice, if you want it, is just to make sure he knows that he's always welcome back without pressure, and that if he doesn't wish to take on any leadership or responsibility then nobody minds that either. It's much easier for a player who was very active to ease themselves back at their own pace, than to feel like that have to step right back into their old high-profile role. 😊
Now, if you need any help or advice about the guild wiki page, don't hesitate to ask! One free tip is that a big page like your guild's is much easier to edit on desktop than on mobile, if you're able to do that. -- Djonni (talk) 05:46, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
Hmmm, maybe I should take down that notice on the guild wiki...
Anyway, thank you for the advice, once in a (long) while I find the time to sink time in to the wikis, and when that happens again maybe I'll get some advice from you on tackling bigger projects. I've always been wary of anything involving more than a tiny bit of code, as there isn't really a good tutorial on how the coding works. I'm not about to go become a programmer just to edit wikis, although wouldn't it be nice if we can all donate significant portions of our lives to the things we enjoy? Anyway, I'm ranting, so thank you for your help and offers!
--His portliness (talk) 06:05, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
Well, the Godwiki works much like any other wiki, including Wikipedia, except that our wiki is built on a much simpler and older version of the wiki software (and doesn't include the fancy new Visual Editor, just the regular ol' Wiki Markup Editor). The Wikipedia Introduction to editing with Wiki Markup should be a pretty good place to start, if you're looking for a tutorial on how editing works. 😊 -- Djonni (talk) 06:46, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
I updated the Sunbathing Vampire. Can I mark it as not a stub? What are your thoughts on my update? --His portliness (talk)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I've given Sunbathing Vampire a once-over and made some corrections and changes, added a latin name, and a couple of other minor changes. I removed the references to mother-in-law's basement — I'm not sure if they came from your edit or from an older edit. I also changed the references to Fireball whiskey, which doesn't exist in the Godville universe as far as our heroines and heroes' diaries have recorded, to a reference to a real and existing artifact, bottle of djinn and tonic.

I took the {{stub}} hatnote off the page, but I'll be honest, I think there's still some room to make it even better. As a reader I still have some questions! 😊

Why does this Vampire love Sunbathing so much? It's a wildly irresponsible thing for a Vampire to do. Is it simply a daredevil, an adrenaline junky? If it's an adrenaline junky, does it love the taste of adrenaline in the blood of heroines and heroes, and if so, how does it maximise that flavour? On the other hand, this story claims that it comes from hell or from a basement. Perhaps that's why it loves the sun so much — until it came to the surface, it spent its entire existence never seeing sunlight. Is that what makes it risk everything to sunbathe?

Anyway, if you feel inspired, I think you should keep working on the article at your own pace. It's good now, but you have the chance to make your guild totem's article and backstory great, if you like 😊 -- Djonni (talk) 05:15, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I'll definitely put more work into it. I didn't want the writing to feel forced so I stopped where I did.
--His portliness (talk) 06:25, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
Heh, yeah, that's not unwise! It can be hard to judge your writing as you're writing it, and a bit of distance definitely helps! 😄 -- Djonni (talk) 07:38, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Picture troubles

I tried adding a picture to 12th step, but it showed up double with some random text on the side. Any explanation? What an I doing wrong? --His portliness (talk) 09:00, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

I fixed it for you in this edit. The infoboxes take care of the formatting of the picture so that it's consistent, and as hard as possible for people to screw up mobile views (you'd be surprised how easy this is to do, and even with the infoboxes we still have users who struggle when using mobile devices with narrow screens like iPhones<=5ish generation).
So the template wants just the image name, and none of the [[File:...|stuff]], or the formatting and display happens twice with some junk, as you discovered. 😊 Without access under the hood of the wiki code, which no players have (nor are likely to get any time soon), there's not way around this, I'm afraid. -- Djonni (talk) 09:17, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
That was indeed confusing to me, especially since on Special:Upload the instructions say to include the [[File:...|stuff]]. Maybe that page should be updated with clearer instructions on how to add a picture to an infobox? In the actual Creators Manual it does mention about infoboxes, however my assumption is that people are going to simply follow the (slightly confusing) information on the Special:Upload page. --His portliness (talk) 09:50, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
Aaahhhh, I'd never connected the instructions on that page with people's confusion about the template parameters, but it seems obvious now! Thank you for pointing that out, I'll have to get that fixed up Soon As I Can™️ -- Djonni (talk) 13:38, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I don't think we can change the Special:Upload contents without admin rights (if they can even do it). I reported it once but never heard of it since. -- WardPhoenix (talk) 16:02, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Can we create a new upload page? That way we can rewrite it as needed. --His portliness (talk) 21:45, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
I've had some success asking the devs to fix things like this before, so I think it's worth another shot. I thought about it last night and there's one or two things I'd love to do first; I want to quickly update {{guild}} and any other that needs this {{hero}} perhaps, off the top of my head) so that the image parameter is named |image= (I've been meaning to do this for some time) so that the instructions are clear and consistent across all the infoboxes. The old names will continue to work, of course. -- Djonni (talk) 04:31, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
I have no experience with templates, but I am really curious about how to change the parameter on those two templates without everyone losing their pictures. Also, how do I venture a picture I uploaded? --His portliness (talk) 06:23, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
The change is actually very simple, though without an understanding of how template codes work it'll probably be gibberish, heh. Here's the change to {{guild}}, if you're interested in looking. -- Djonni (talk) 07:10, 13 October 2020 (UTC)