Difference between revisions of "Talk:Main Page/Archive"

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* [[Talk:Main Page/Archive/2011-2017|2011-2017]]
=2019=
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* [[Talk:Main Page/Archive/2018|2018]]
 
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* [[Talk:Main Page/Archive/2019|2019]]
== Sign template updates requiring page edits ==
+
* [[Talk:Main Page/Archive/2020|2020]]
 
+
* [[Talk:Main Page/Archive/2021|2021]]
{{Sign|title=This template needs to be fixed|text=These fixes will require the editing of Guild articles by a non-Guild-member (specifically, me — [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]]), which is normally not permitted by the Godwiki rules. I request that everyone understand the reasons behind this one-time, limited violation of those rules.}}
 
===The plan===
 
The {{tlx|Sign}} template, which is used to create notices like the one above, has several issues with how its parameters are specified. You can find a long, detailed explanation of those issues at [[Template talk:Sign|the Talk page for the template]], if you're interested. But the important point here is, those issues are going to be fixed. The fixes, however, will affect ''existing'' uses of {{tlx|Sign}} in Godwiki articles.
 
===What this means for you (the editor of an article containing {{tlx|Sign}})===
 
# If your article contains a sign transclusion with parameters like {{tlx|Sign|bordercolor{{=}}red}} or {{tlx|Sign|bgcolor{{=}}#91A3B0}}, those parameters will '''start''' working, where up until now they have been ignored. This will change the appearance of the sign, perhaps in unwanted ways. If so, simply remove the {{para|bgcolor}}, {{para|bordercolor}}, or {{para|outerbordercolor}} arguments so that the sign will use the default values, like it was previously.
 
# If your article contains a transclusion with parameters like {{para|bordercolor|ee8822}}, those parameters will ''break'' due to the changes. If this happens, '''I will fix them for you''', by changing them to e.g. {{para|bordercolor|#ee8822}}. You will not have to do anything. That is the reason for this announcement, and for the request that Guild members understand why a non-member will be editing their Guild page. My changes on any Guild articles will be limited to editing {{tlx|Sign}} parameters '''''only'''''.
 
 
 
If there are any affected {{tlx|Sign}} transclusions on user pages (it doesn't ''look'' like it, so far), I won't be able to fix them. I'll try to leave explanatory notes on the associated Talk pages, if those cases arise.
 
 
 
I don't plan to start these changes immediately (I want to give people time to digest this announcement, for one thing), but they will be happening soon and most likely will be completed by the end of the week. If anyone has any objections or issues, you have the floor... -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 21:56, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
 
 
 
: <strike>{{m|partlydone}}</strike>
 
: The color-parameter changes are complete. {{tlx|Sign|bgcolor{{=}}|bordercolor{{=}}|outerbordercolor{{=}}}} now accepts '''any''' valid CSS color string, e.g. {{para|bgcolor|red}} or {{para|bordercolor|rgb(100,150,0)}}. If specifying color by hex color value (i.e. <code>#RGB</code> or <code>#RRGGBB</code>), you ''must'' include  the leading <code>#</code> sign.
 
:; Guild pages edited
 
:* [[The Ancestry Knight]]
 
:* [[Lucky God Casino]] (three places)
 
:* [[I AM]] (two places)
 
:* [[Open Bar]]
 
:* [[404]]
 
: The only change that remains to be done is the fix to {{para|imgwidth}}, and the only page that will be affected ''there'' is [[Open Bar]] (again). I'll get to that another time. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 00:24, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
 
:: {{m|done}}
 
:: Completely done, {{para|imgwidth}} syntax is updated in {{tlx|Sign}} and all three pages which make use of that parameter ([[Open Bar]], [[Template:Godwiki event construction]], and [[Template:Godwiki event review]]) have been modified accordingly. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 11:52, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
== Fixes for mobile content layout ==
 
 
 
So, I have an ''idea'' for how to blanket address the general mobile-browser formatting issue of content/headings being hidden by, cut off by, or improperly squeezed in alongside infoboxes and other right-floated elements (like the Archive box on Talk pages), without having to modify individual pages. The ''correct'' way to solve this problem would be with modifications to the site CSS, but lacking the ability to make such modifications I'm proposing the following band-aid fix.
 
 
 
For those not familiar with the issue, see:
 
* The second, fourth, and sixth images in [https://imgur.com/a/bWh75T4 this set of screenshots] from {{god|S624}}
 
* [https://imgur.com/a/zDv7djX These screenshots] also from {{god|S624}}
 
* [https://imgur.com/a/8dTiBXT This screenshot] or [https://imgur.com/a/6JNnEBS this screenshot] from {{god|Terezka}}
 
 
 
I've also written up [[User:FeRDNYC/Administrative requests#Content obscured by infoboxes on mobile|an incomplete technical dissection of the issue]] for those interested. The later update also explains both my initial idea for addressing the issue, and this (rethought) second plan that I'm now proposing. The first plan involved editing each page where content was wrapping incorrectly, whereas the new plan involves only editing the handful of templates which create infoboxes or other floated content.
 
 
 
My proposal is to add an invisible spacer to the end of each template which creates floated content ({{tlx|Monster}}, {{tlx|Equipment}}, {{tlx|Artifact}}, {{tlx|Town}}, {{tlx|Guild}}, {{tlx|Archives}}, etc.), immediately following the floated block. Because this spacer will have a fixed minimum width, if it fits alongside the floated block then it will simply cause an empty paragraph's worth of vertical whitespace at the top-left of the float. However, if there ''isn't'' room for the spacer alongside the float, then it will push any content which follows it (whether headings, body text, etc.) down '''below''' the floated block, preventing any of the uncomfortable layouts seen in the screenshots above.
 
 
 
To visually demonstrate what I'm suggesting, I've created '''[https://imgur.com/a/A47nhQg a screenshot gallery across a range of screen formats and orientations, and various wiki skins]'''. The screenshots present examples of how a test page would render first without, and then with, the invisible spacer. (The location of the normally-invisible spacer is highlighted with a "<code>div</code>" callout in all screenshots starting from the fifth.)
 
 
 
Making this change should fix all affected pages, and hopefully on all affected devices, without any of the individual pages needing to be modified in any way.
 
 
 
Thoughts? -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 14:41, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
 
:: Seems quite the revolution. It's gonna be a lot to add it to every concerned page, but in the end it will be way better it seems. Great thanks to you! [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 15:02, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: Modifying the templates definitely sounds easier/less involved than editing each page. I like the look of the solution, too. Is there a reason behind choosing the fixed width to specifically be 180 px? (That's what I think I'm reading, at least.) It works well, but I'm curious. -- [[User:SourceRunner|SourceRunner]] ([[User talk:SourceRunner|talk]]) 15:11, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::: @WardPhoenix: The advantage to the proposed fix is that it specifically ''doesn't'' require modifying every page — only a few templates. The alternative would be to correct every page which is rendering incorrectly, which would indeed be a huge chore. As proposed, as few as two templates need to be edited. (If I decide the right way to go is to stick the fix into {{tlx|Infobox}} itself — rather than the derived templates like {{tlx|Monster}} and {{tlx|Town}} etc. — then that covers 95% of the problem instances in one shot.)
 
 
 
:::: @SourceRunner: The width is specified as <code>15em</code>, so the exact size will vary based on device resolution, but the actual value is basically arbitrary. Its effect is to impose a required (minimum) width for the area to the left of a floated template, before it's allowed to have content placed alongside. The width used is certainly open to adjustment — my goal is to find a value that's wide enough to prevent situations like [https://i.imgur.com/NIdHi8t.png this] or [https://i.imgur.com/7g9Alrb.png this], without leaving excessively-large blank areas next to infoboxes and the like. (Keeping in mind that any ''headings'' that are allowed to render in that space will be cut off unless the space is wide enough to wrap all of the words into it.)
 
 
 
:::: Basically, I'm trying to avoid creating either of these situations:
 
<div style="border:1px solid gray;padding:0.2em;width:20em;float:left;margin-right:1em;margin-left:8em;">
 
<div style="float:right;background-color:#88f;width:15em;height:8em;"> </div>
 
<div style="display:inline-block;min-width:4em;height:1px;"> </div>
 
<div style="font-size: 1.5em; font-family: Georgia,Times,serif; margin-top: 1em; margin-bottom: 0.25em; line-height: 1.3; padding: 0; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAAAAA; overflow: hidden;">Too narrow, heading truncated</div>
 
</div>
 
<div style="border:1px solid gray;padding:0.2em;width:20em;float:left;margin-right:1em;">
 
<div style="float:right;background-color:#88f;width:5em;height:8em;"> </div>
 
<div style="display:inline-block;min-width:16em;height:1px;"> </div>
 
Too wide, content pushed out when it could comfortably fit alongside.
 
</div>
 
{{clear}}
 
:::: ...Keeping in mind that the width of the left-hand space in those boxes will vary by quite a lot, based on factors like screen size, orientation, etc. Choosing the right <code>min-width</code> value to achieve the proper balance is completely a matter of intuition / trial-and-error. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 19:04, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::::: (By using a width in <code>em</code> units, the size of the spacer is defined based on the font size in use. Specifically, it's the width of 15 letter 'm' characters. So, currently, the minimum available space to render text to the left of floated content would be this large: <span style="white-space:no-wrap;background-color:black;color:#3f3;">mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm</span>.) -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 19:12, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
 
: This seems to have introduced a new problem, at least on my iPhone 5S using the vector skin. The info box now appears not at the top, but after the first paragraph, so sometime half way down the page, and also, the box is cut off on the right side of the screen. Here’s a screenshot of the problem : https://imgur.com/a/2TTpUYv —[[User:Holy Spirit of Hell|Holy Spirit of Hell]] ([[User talk:Holy Spirit of Hell|talk]]) 02:16, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: @HSoH: This hasn't been done yet, so nothing's changed. That's just how the mobile skin lays the page out. The first content paragraph (the same one that would come before "Contents") gets placed before the infobox, in the mobile Vector rendering. (Doesn't happen with WPTouch, the mobile "Desktop" view.) That's another thing that's beyond our control.
 
 
 
:: If it seems like things have changed recently with a certain article's layout, most likely it previously had a JanuWiki header. When the header is in place, ''it'' becomes the "first paragraph", so the infobox renders immediately after it. Remove the header, and the first content paragraph moves up above the infobox. Been that way all along, and nothing we can do about it, alas. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 02:30, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: The infoboxes sticking off the left edge of the screen in the mobile app, that's also been happening all along, to varying degrees on various devices. It only happens in the Godville app browser — load the same page in mobile Chrome or Firefox, and it renders perfectly. I have no idea what the devs are doing to break page layout in their mobile app, but <span style="font-family:monospace; font-weight:bold;">¯\_(ツ)_/¯</span>. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 02:30, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: No, this is definitely a new issue, it happens on all info boxes and all skins and did not look like this before. Before today, infoboxes were only slightly cut off, with the words sitting right on the margin, still legible. And the info box appearing halfway down the page is also something new and appears on all pages, even ones that haven’t been recently changed. Though if nothing about the info boxes themselves has changed, I have no clue what the cause could be.
 
 
 
::: I’ve now noticed that the pages do have the correct layout on the mobile version of the desktop, but the infoboxes are still the same. —[[User:Holy Spirit of Hell|Holy Spirit of Hell]] ([[User talk:Holy Spirit of Hell|talk]]) 19:31, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: On further experimentation, the page and all others render the exact same way in mobile Firefox and Chrome, it is broken in every fashion that I can access it with my iPhone 5S. Furthermore, using the mobile ‘desktop’ version, the infoboxes have shifted even further to the left side of the screen, cutting off more text, something has definitely changed [[User:Holy Spirit of Hell|Holy Spirit of Hell]] ([[User talk:Holy Spirit of Hell|talk]]) 21:06, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::: I think that's a great and clever solution with the tools that are available! Even though it's a band-aid fix, I think it looks good and serves its purpose well. --[[User:Terezka|Terezka]] ([[User talk:Terezka|talk]]) 20:23, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::::: Agreed on good workaround. Congrats [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]]. -- [[User:S624|S624]] ([[User talk:S624|talk]]) 20:27, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{outdent|:::::}} Thanks, all. This fix is now in place for {{tlx|Archives}} and all templates based on {{tlx|Infobox}}: {{tlx|Monster}}, {{tlx|Equipment}}, {{tlx|Artifact}}, {{tlx|Town}}. (That list will expand to include {{tlx|Guild}} when I release the new Guild template — see [[User:FeRDNYC/Sandbox]] — which will most likely happen some time this weekend.) I'm not planning to screw around with other templates like {{tlx|Usergod}}/{{tlx|Usergoddess}} or {{tlx|Hero}}, for the moment. If anyone can think of any right-floated templates '''other''' than the ones I just mentioned which would be candidates for this fix, please let me know. I'm currently not coming up with any.
 
 
 
The {{tlx|spacer}} addition can be disabled on any page where it's causing a problem by adding {{para|spacer|no}} to the template arguments, and it can be disabled globally by undoing the appropriate edit at [[Template:Archives]] and/or [[Template:Infobox]]. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 15:38, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
: Re: {{god|Holy Spirit of Hell}}'s comments, above, which use the [[Beerburglar]] page as an example (but are '''not''' limited to that page, I understand)...
 
 
 
: {{tqb|Before today, infoboxes were only slightly cut off, with the words sitting right on the margin, still legible. And the info box appearing halfway down the page is also something new and appears on all pages, even ones that haven’t been recently changed. Though if nothing about the info boxes themselves has changed, I have no clue what the cause could be.}}
 
 
 
: You can see from the edit history for [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=Template:Infobox&action=history Template:Infobox] and [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=Template:Monster&action=history Template:Monster] that, before today (the 19th), the most recent changes of any sort were 6 days ago on the 13th (for [[Template:Infobox]], not counting that edit on the 14th to undo the previous change), or 10 days ago (for [[Template:Monster]]) — nothing changed on the 18th (the day your "Before today" referenced) at all.
 
 
 
: Those changes on the 13th '''''could've''''' affected infobox layout on the iPhone, though they ''shouldn't'' have since I just removed some DIVs that were put in place for the old Minerva mobile skin that's not in use anymore. More likely to have affected layout would be the changes on the 9th, which did involve changes to widths and font sizes. But if anything's been changed more recently than that, it must've been done outside of the wiki content.
 
 
 
: {{tqb|On further experimentation, the page and all others render the exact same way in mobile Firefox and Chrome, it is broken in every fashion that I can access it with my iPhone 5S. Furthermore, using the mobile ‘desktop’ version, the infoboxes have shifted even further to the left side of the screen, cutting off more text, something has definitely changed}}
 
 
 
: Yeah, sorry, that was me being unclear. The thing about Firefox/Chrome was Android-specific; it wouldn't apply to iPhone since [https://www.howtogeek.com/184283/why-third-party-browsers-will-always-be-inferior-to-safari-on-iphone-and-ipad/ all web browsers on iPhone use the Safari layout engine], so differences would not be expected or... well, ''possible'' really.
 
 
 
: And as far as the iPhone, I'm still milking that free BrowserStack trial, and its screenshot service corroborates your experience regarding the cut-off infoboxes on iPhone 5 ([https://imgur.com/a/prOgKo2 screenshots]) — but notice that it's ''only'' on iPhone 5, at least of the devices represented. (A sadly very limited list which I have no control over, now that I've exhausted the live-testing portion of my free trial.)
 
 
 
: But on the question of '''why''' it's rendering like that on the iPhone: I have no idea, sorry. I don't have an iPhone or have access to an iPhone, and since I don't have any way to test on iOS devices (or a reasonable substitute) anymore, I don't have any way to reproduce or examine the issue. Which does not occur on any devices I '''do''' have access to.
 
 
 
: Just looking at the screenshots, it sort of ''looks'' like the issue could be related to the image size, like it's too large for the display... but I last changed '''that''' [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=Template:Infobox_image&action=history on December 9] so it would be weird if it's only coming up now. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 23:26, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: {{god|FeRDNYC}}, the display size on the SE, which your simulator shows working correctly, if shifted downwards, has the same display size, so I don’t think the image size is the problem. The difference is in the processor and the RAM, with the SE being a lot more powerful, so that probably has something to do with it.
 
 
 
 
 
:: I’m not sure that I’ve looked at any normal GodWiki articles between the 13th and the day of my first reply, so the formatting change could be what has shifted the infoboxes, since there it has changed and there seems to be nothing else that could have caused it —[[User:Holy Spirit of Hell|Holy Spirit of Hell]] ([[User talk:Holy Spirit of Hell|talk]]) 01:55, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: Ah, sorry — the Imgur captions are ''below'' the images they respond to, so the '''first''' screenshot with the shifting-off-the-left-edge issue is actually the iPhone SE. I misremembered which model it was because 5 and S look the same and Apple's naming scheme is fucking moronic. All the ''rest'' of the screenshots are different Android devices. (The "Shifted down" on the next image — the Nexus 5 — is just because BrowserStack's Android device testbeds don't assemble long web content screenshots seamlessly, so there are visible page breaks every screen-length... the first of which happens to fall right before the infobox, on that device.)
 
 
 
::: If it's possible the issue started on the 13th, then it could be the removal of those DIVs I suppose. In which case, that sucks, because they were causing crazy-excessive margins around the infoboxes on desktop, so they really need to not be there. (They were never ''correct'' in the first place, I was abusing the CSS of the now-disabled mobile skin to avoid a table-sizing issue.) I'd suggest reporting the issue with infobox layout on iOS to the Godville devs. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 04:49, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 
{{outdent|::::}} Apropos of nothing at all, really, I just captured [http://imgur.com/gallery/eNrHpfQ this screenshot] while reading an article from Stargate fan blog Gateworld on my phone. It weirdly makes me feel a little better that we're not the only ones fighting this issue. (Not that I ever thought we were.) -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 23:13, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
== Formatting g.e. dates ==
 
 
 
Inspired by the work {{god|WardPhoenix}} and {{god|SourceRunner}} were doing on the [[Godbuster]] article, which makes excellent use of g.e. dates, I realized that we should be doing more to assist with and standardize the formatting of those dates. (Why this article in particular triggered the idea, I can't say, but it happened to strike me while reading it.) Basically:
 
# The dates and the "g.e." after them should really be connected ''by a '''non-breaking''' space'', so they won't be broken up by line-wrapping.
 
# That's something that a template can easily take care of.
 
 
 
My initial idea was to just change template {{tlx|ge}} so it would add "<code>&amp;nbsp;g.e.</code>" to the end of the output, but it's used all over the wiki in places where it's expected '''not''' to do that, and it would be a massive pain to change them all.
 
 
 
Instead I hacked up a new template {{tlx|date ge}} — it works like {{tlx|ge}} in many ways, '''except''' it always appends "<code>&amp;nbsp;g.e.</code>" to its output, and you can use {{tlx|date ge|<var>number</var>}} to format a g.e. date without conversion.
 
 
 
So, to borrow some examples from [[Template:GE/Documentation#Examples of use|the documentation]]:
 
<div style="margin-left:1.6em;border:1px solid #888;padding:0.2em;">
 
;<code><nowiki>[[</nowiki>Godville (game)|Godville]] was born on {{tlf|date ge|ge{{=}}0}}!</code> {{nobold|''appears as:''}}
 
: [[Godville (game)|Godville]] was born on {{date ge|ge=0}}!
 
 
 
;<code>The 5th of August 2013 was {{tlf|date ge|1183}}</code> {{nobold|''appears as:''}}
 
:The 5th of August 2013 was {{date ge|1183}}
 
 
 
;<code>The 15th of December 2011 was {{tlf|date ge|12|15|2011}}</code> {{nobold|''appears as:''}}
 
:The 15th of December 2011 was {{date ge|12|52|2011}}
 
</div>
 
'''TL;DR''': Basically,
 
# Anywhere you're writing "<code><var>number</var> g.e.</code>", you can instead use {{tlx|date ge|<var>number</var>}} and the date will be formatted properly to protect against line wrapping.
 
# Anywhere you're writing "<code>{{tlf|ge|<var>mm</var>|<var>dd</var>|<var>yyyy</var>}} g.e.</code>" can become "{{tlx|date ge|<var>mm</var>|<var>dd</var>|<var>yyyy</var>}}" to take advantage of the same protection.
 
And to illustrate the main reason for this template (besides the fact that typing "<code>&amp;nbsp;g.e.</code>" constantly is a pain), here's the difference vs. just typing "{{tlx|ge|1|26|2019}}<code> g.e.</code>" or "<code><var>number</var> g.e.</code>" with a normal space:
 
<div style="margin-left:1.6em;border:1px solid #888;padding:0.2em;width:9em;float:left;">
 
Before:<br>
 
:Written&nbsp;on&nbsp;{{ge|1|26|2019}}<br>g.e.
 
</div>
 
<div style="margin-left:1.6em;border:1px solid #888;padding:0.2em;width:9em;float:left;">
 
After:<br>
 
:Written&nbsp;on<br>{{date ge|1|26|2019}}
 
</div>{{clear}}
 
-- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 21:26, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
== Activation cost in Artifact infobox ==
 
 
 
The {{tlx|Artifact}} template now supports a {{para|cost}} parameter, used to specify the activation cost of [[activatable artifacts]]. Possible values are:
 
:{{para|cost|0}} – Requires no godpower to activate (can also be: <code>free</code>,<code>none</code>,<code>0%</code>)
 
:{{para|cost|50}} – Requires 50% of godpower to activate (can also be: <code>50%</code>)
 
See it in use at [[Subplot thickener]].
 
-- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 23:02, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
== Subtypes now implied in monster template ==
 
 
 
After a small coding error that briefly caused ''all'' monster articles to appear in [[:Category:Boss-Monsters]] (whoops, sorry about that), the {{tlx|monster}} template is now upgraded so that it's no longer '''required''' that the sub-type be explicitly activated with {{para|pet|yes}}, {{para|boss|yes}}, or {{para|sea|yes}}. If any of the parameters that correspond to that type are set, it will imply the corresponding sub-type. The switches '''may''' still be used to activate a sub-type, and '''must''' still be used if none of the subtype parameters can be set.
 
 
 
Because of this implication, the parameters that correspond to subtypes have been given new canonical names that include their subtype. The old names can still be used, but the new ones are preferred.
 
 
 
What that means, by example:
 
*;It's no longer necessary to write
 
*: {{tlx|monster|pet{{=}}yes|levels{{=}}18-25}} or {{tlx|monster|pet{{=}}yes|feature{{=}}rideable}}
 
*;Instead write
 
*: {{tlx|monster|pet-levels{{=}}18-25}} or {{tlx|monster|pet-feature{{=}}rideable}}
 
 
 
*;It's no longer necessary to write: {{tlx|monster|boss{{=}}yes|boss-type{{=}}underground}}
 
*;Instead write: {{tlx|monster|boss-type{{=}}underground}}
 
 
 
*;It's no longer necessary to write:{{tlx|monster|sea{{=}}yes|names{{=}}1}}
 
*;Instead write: {{tlx|monster|sea-names{{=}}1}}
 
 
 
But, again, you '''must''' set {{para|boss|yes}} to create a [[boss-monster]] article if you are '''not''' setting a value for {{para|boss-type}} (including when you are leaving it blank). The same rule applies for the other subtype parameters.
 
 
 
Please report any issues caused by this change over at [[Template talk:Monster]]. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 22:22, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: Seems to work on the few cases i tried it, shortens the edits a little. Thanks! --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 14:01, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
== Notes on potentials dupes on Lists==
 
 
 
Forgot to post it here (even though i told myself i'll do it) so leaving a short resume. We have potential dupes in lists (Omnibus List and all the equipment/artifact/etc) such for exemple the case of [[death note]] or [[Snooze button] which are referenced as both equipment and artifact.
 
 
 
Another exemple is the double eye-pacth who was referenced as equipment in 3 differents spelling (inquiry show that atleast two of them co-exist) and also referenced as artifact ; or the [[Gaolkeeper]] who redirect to [[Ghoulkeeper]] but i have no certitude the former don't exist independently from the latter.
 
 
 
If you want to help gather infomations, please take a look at the [[User talk:WardPhoenix|list on my talk page]] and don't hesitate to leave a note here or on the relative talk on my page. Thanks in advance to those who'll help! --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 14:01, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
: It's been almost a month since i made that list and while some of them have been resolved, some name are still only one of their homonyms found in the game.
 
 
 
Would you agree on conclude that the one yet not found doesn't currently exist? And so to proceed to their deletion on lists (omnibus and respective list) ? --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 16:03, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
: Makes sense to me. In general, my feeling is that if something ''doesn't'' have an article, and we're reasonably sure it's redundant with another listed item, might as well drop the duplicate from the list(s). That entry can always be added back in again. (Obviously, if there's an existing article then that's a totally different story.) -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 16:45, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: [[Gaolkeeper]] redirecting to [[Ghoulkeeper]], that one doesn't really make sense to me. {{u|SourceRunner}} raised an objection to that redirect at one point, and I agree — while the two names are '''similar''', they really don't have anything to do with each other. It's possible whoever made the redirect wasn't familiar with the word "Gaol" as an alternate form of "jail", and assumed it was a typo of the closest-named monster.
 
 
 
:: And I see that there's now a stub [[Gaolkeeper]] article to replace the redirect, so that solves that. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 16:51, 13 March 2019 (UTC).
 
 
 
== Small Edits on Main banner ==
 
 
 
I went bold, but i'll post the why there in case someone have an objection. I remplaced some of the category that appeared in the bottom of the welcome banner. Here are my changes :
 
 
 
*All Categories -> Guidelines
 
*All Pages -> Help/Requests
 
*Map of Godville -> Omnibus List
 
 
 
The 3 formers category are not really useful while the 3 remplacements may help for guidelines and help/request to have better exposure and for omnibus list to have a direct link especially for mobile user.
 
 
 
If someone have an objection, please undo and notify here.
 
 
 
--[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 16:59, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
: Makes sense to me. I have this weird reluctance to link to the [[Omnibus List]] directly from the [[Main Page]], but I can't explain ''why'' and I certainly recognize the utility to crossword <strike>cheaters</strike> solvers, so to heck with my reluctance. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 07:31, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
 
 
== Theming or Other Event Brainstorms ==
 
 
 
{{u|FeRDNYC}} makes a really good point above that two big events a year would be amazing, but that there's also opportunities for smaller events. With the basis that JanuWiki should now be an annual event, perhaps this should be a list of other event or drive ideas (big and small) that we could do, to figure out how we could space things to still get necessary stuff done. -- [[User:SourceRunner|SourceRunner]] ([[User talk:SourceRunner|talk]]) 17:37, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
* '''JanuWiki 2020: Year of the WikiGnome/GodWikiStmas''' -- Big event. Next JanuWiki. Starts when? Ends January 31, 2020. Wrap-up ends February 29, 2020. Theming granularity? Process certainties?
 
 
 
* '''Guidelines and Guide Resources Drive'''
 
(Please expand)
 
 
 
* '''Easter Interlink Special''' -- Small event. EIS Eternal would be willing to sponsor a small wiki event during the Easter week or two weeks, with the object of adding links between pages on GodWiki (with reasonable reasons for doing so). One of the wiki strengths is the ability to create an ecosystem of lore, and the best way to explore that is following links between pages. So there could be the a specific event that GodWiki editors and content creators each chose a pair of pages to interlink, and write the lore between them that explains their relationships in the ecosystem and links the two. A report to the "Help Request" page when finished a pairing would make the pair's linker eligible for a reward of some sort after EIS checks that it has been done and does make sense.
 
 
 
* '''Trans-Lore-Ation''' -- Small event. A lot of Godville lore is in the forums and tucked away in little sections of personal chronicles. As players, we in common tend to "know" this lore to be true, but not have it on GodWiki. How about a small event where people scavenger-hunt their favorite descriptions of towns, taverns, monsters, and Godville myths from the older parts of forums and the crannies of guild and personal pages, then add excerpts and possible links to the applicable pages in GodWiki.
 
 
 
* '''Stub It Out''' -- Large event. Survey what articles with the "Stub" tag are still stubs, and remove tags where appropriate. Expand articles that are still stubs.
 
 
 
* '''"Wherefore ART Thou?"''' -- Large event(?). Adding art to the "picture needed" category articles. Some artists need a long time to plan, so this may need to be a slow or multi-phase event.
 
: Could be associated with the stub event maybe?
 
 
 
 
 
::: Sounds like there is some good ideas ready for the oven. I'd say that if you want to throw an event, just go for it. Create a page for it and allow us to help for the preparation.
 
:::Maybe we should make like a planner for upcomming events. By the way, talks about upcomming event may be more appropriate on the main talk
 
 
 
::: As for JanuWiki2020 (or GodWikiStmas maybe), I'd say we have the time to see it coming. Let's care of other event before.
 
 
 
::: --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 23:55, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::: As another idea for a possible event (I don't even know if it would be considered big or small), [[:Category:Pictures needed]] is up to 314 entries. That's 314 ''existing'' articles (primarily ones that use {{tlx|Monster}}, {{tlx|Artifact}}, or {{tlx|Equipment}}) which don't have an image to go with their subject. Trimming that list down a bit could also be a good way to get non-writers involved in creating wiki content. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 06:39, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::::: Oh, yes, and [[:Category:Stubs]] is up to 552 articles that (in theory) need fleshing-out.
 
 
 
::::: I say "in theory" because some of them may not ''really'' be stubs, having been expanded since they were tagged that way. In the "Advanced options" at the bottom of the [[Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rendering|appearance preferences]] is the option "Threshold for stub link formatting". It takes a length (in bytes) an article's source must be so it's not considered a stub. Links to all articles shorter than that threshold will be colored with a darker shade of red than the standard {{fake redlink|redlink}} coloring.
 
 
 
::::: I currently have that preference set to 1000 bytes, and still some of the items in [[:Category:Stubs]] are colored blue. It's certainly ''possible'' for an article that's over 1000 bytes long to also be a stub, but it's also possible that there's already plenty of content there and the stub designation is outdated / overzealous. I'd say maybe 10-15% of the category's members show non-stub link coloring. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 07:00, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::::: These are great ideas for events, {{u|WardPhoenix}} and {{u|FeRDNYC}}. I've added them to the bullet point list above, and tried to evaluate them as large or small, based on your descriptions. Please feel free to expand or change what's in the bullet list.
 
:::::: {{u|WardPhoenix}}, good suggestion about the planner/calendar for events. Is something like that possible in GodWiki, {{u|FeRDNYC}}? --[[User:SourceRunner|SourceRunner]] ([[User talk:SourceRunner|talk]]) 15:21, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::::::: {{tqb|I'd say that if you want to throw an event, just go for it. Create a page for it and allow us to help for the preparation.|WardPhoenix}}
 
::::::: I would agree with that, with one small adjustment: When you decide you ''definitely '''are''''' throwing an event, creating a page for it would be the first step in preparing for it, and can serve as the formal announcement of the upcoming event.
 
 
 
::::::: I think {{u|Djonni}} worked up to [[JanuWiki 2019]] exactly the right way (whether intentionally or by pure luck): He put out feelers on the forums and in a proposal here at [[Talk:Main Page]], and used those discussions to solicit feedback and take the community's temperature on the idea. Then once he was sure there was sufficient interest that he could commit to definitely doing an event, he pulled the trigger on creating the event page, at which point he had someplace he could link to as a "more information" resource when he made the official announcement(s) about the upcoming event.
 
 
 
::::::: At any stage of planning, there's always the possibility that an event could end up getting cancelled for lack of involvement or interest. Things happen. But that risk can be minimized by getting at least a core team on board ''before'' putting a lot of work into constructing an event framework for a "maybe" or "possible" event. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 14:43, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
Moved this to the main page as it is more appropriate place and also easier to reach (yeah I'm lazy to reach for januwiki page every time on my phone). By the way I think the EIS event would be quite interesting, and as easter is coming i'd suggest we start thinking about it if you really want to kick it.
 
On a side note, I don't think a guideline event would be appropriate. Guidelines are supposed to be wrote by experimented and active users for beginners. That's more something we have to work on with experimented users I'd say.
 
-- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 23:02, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
: That's a fair point, re: the Guidelines. I guess it depends how broadly you define "event". Certainly, you're right, guidelines-updates aren't the sort of free-for-all activity where we'd put out a call to the entire Godville user community for participation. Maybe "an effort", or "a sprint" (to employ some of my least-favorite software development jargon), ''among'' those experienced users.
 
 
 
: That being said...
 
:# A ''lot'' of what's lacking in the current Guidelines articles just comes down to formatting, copyediting, structure, and layout fixes — things that ''could'' be done by almost anyone, especially with guidance, as there's no real expertise needed. (However, as they '''also''' need major content updates, they're definitely not ''entirely'' fixable by casual editors alone. But they could be vastly improved.)
 
:# Because (as you say) the target audience for the Guidelines is inexperienced users, in my experience it's a huge mistake to write them '''without''' any input from users at or near that level. One of the things I learned in software development is that you never have the senior programmer, the one who wrote most of the code and knows every aspect of the software inside-and-out, write the instruction manual. If they try, 90% of the time it'll end up being unintelligible to the "average users" it's supposed to be written for. <p>(It's the same reason you NEVER sign up for a freshman-level "Intro to Whatever" class if it's taught by that department's most senior, most published, most brilliant researcher. Very few people whose knowledge of a topic is at that level will be capable of "dumbing things down" sufficiently that they can effectively teach it to students who have virtually no background in the subject. Everything will go right over their heads.)</p>
 
 
 
: The two trickiest problems in documentation don't have anything to do with knowledge or accuracy of information: The first is figuring out exactly where your target audience is at in terms of background knowledge and skill level, so that you know which things need to be explained, vs. what they probably already know so you don't waste their time repeating it. The other problem, then, is being ''able'' to explain things at that level, without leaving out any of the information they need because it's just implicitly assumed or seems "obvious" to someone with more experience.
 
 
 
: ...But, all that being said I agree that Guidelines updates wouldn't make sense as an "event" in the JanuWiki mold, where we try to solicit come-one-come-all participation from as many users as possible. Heck, they may not be a very good fit for any sort of organized "group effort" at all — our best bet may be for someone to eventually just dive in and start making [[wikipedia:WP:BOLD|Bold]] changes to define an updated, improved structure for the content. Even if they only update a single Guideline article, once there's an example to work off of, other editors can pitch in to apply the same changes to the rest of the Guidelines. (That sort of example-based, follow-the-leader model is how ''most'' content-wide changes propagate here, really. Djonni created the {{tlx|hero or heroine}} template set, but he's responsible for only a handful of edits that applied those templates to article content.) -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 14:43, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
== A milestone approaches ==
 
 
 
I just happened to notice the following data point at [[Special:Statistics]]:
 
 
 
{|class="wikitable"
 
|-
 
| Page edits since GodWiki was set up || 99,802
 
|}
 
 
 
(And that'll be 99,803 with this post.) We're fast approaching the {{ordinal|100,000}} edit! -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 07:41, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
== Misnamed monster? ==
 
 
 
Does anyone have any thoughts on my [[Talk:Space_Invader#Wrong_name.3F|rename suggestion]] for [[Space Invader]]? (Evidence ''appears'' to indicate that [[Personal Space Invader]] is actually the correct monster name. More details can be found in my [[Talk:Space_Invader#Wrong_name.3F|article talk-page post]].) All input welcome. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 01:09, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: I guess a page-move is the appropriate things to do if it's true. Don't remember seeing that monster in both name so i trust you on the matter. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 13:45, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: Pretty sure that you're right, [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]]. I've never seen it as just a space invader. -- [[User:SourceRunner|SourceRunner]] ([[User talk:SourceRunner|talk]]) 20:23, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: Thanks all. I've moved the article, updated it for the new name (superficially; it's still pretty much written about "space invaders" the game and could use a reworking), and corrected the relevant list articles and redirect targets. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 06:08, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::: Had to happen eh.
 
{{Diary|text=18:49 Stood over the slaughtered Space Invader and delivered a heartfelt requiem for its departed warrior soul. I then looted 6 coins and a recovery disk from the twitching corpse, which I think is a fair fee for a requiem these days.}}
 
I feel sorry for your edits. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 17:51, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::::: Eh! Reverts and move-backs are easy. At least now we know, thanks! I'll incorporate your diary entry into the article as well, in place of the obviously-outdated one there. (...Ooh. Unless we think ''both'' Monsters exist?) -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 09:21, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::::::: I'd say there is a high probability that both actually exist. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 10:41, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::::::: Mmm, well I won't add [[Personal Space Invader]] back to [[List of Monsters]] yet since it redirects to [[Space Invader]] now (and will until someone replaces the redirect with an article). If we get confirmation we can at least stick a stub with a diary entry in there. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 10:46, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
== Effect field for activatable artifacts in infobox ==
 
 
 
I've decided to try and get through some of my backlog of "things I've been meaning to do". (Your day will come, new {{tlx|Guild}} Infobox!) First up: More enhancements to the {{tlx|Artifact}} template for [[Activatable Artifacts]]!
 
 
 
The {{para|cost}} parameter was introduced a little while ago. Now the template supports a companion {{para|effect}} parameter, to (''succinctly'') document what happens when the artifact is activated. For now it's just a free-form text field, though a set of standard arguments [[Template talk:Artifact#Activation cost parameter|has been discussed]] and may still be implemented.
 
 
 
Along with this new parameter come styling and layout changes for the activation details, to group them together and make them stand out — much like the different monster types in {{tlx|Monster}}.
 
 
 
'''See it in use at [[Portable Tunnel]]'''.
 
 
 
Complete template documentation at {{tlx|Artifact}}. Report issues on the template's [[Template talk:Artifact|Talk page]], which can be reached using the "'''[[Template talk:Artifact|T]]'''" link at the bottom of the infobox. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 16:16, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
: Good job and thanks! Looks like I need to get back my GodWiki Gnome badge and I'll do some standardization when I can. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 18:13, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: As for now, most of articles have been templated with the new infobox. Which means most (not to say all) monsters, artifacts and equipments articles have the new infobox on them. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 09:44, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
== Adjustable-width spacers and the featured article box ==
 
 
 
Since the {{tlx|Featured}} box is now allowed to be narrower when placed alongside the {{tlx|Mainpageintro}} box (to give the longer intro text more space), the default <code>15em</code> width used for {{tlx|spacer}} won't allow the featured article text to fit alongside its image in many cases.
 
 
 
So, I expanded the spacer template with an optional parameter to adjust the size of the spacer {{tag|div}}, and {{tlx|spacer|width{{=}}8em}} is now the documented recommendation for formatting articles in [[Template:Featured]]. {{para|width}} can be any supported CSS length value, see documentation at [[Template:Spacer]]. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 02:19, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
== Merging of related main contents articles==
 
 
 
I already put it in the equipment talk page, but then i noticed most of the main contents articles : [[Monster]], [[Equipment]], [[Artifact]], [[Quest]], [[Skills]] and maybe some other articles have a similar "issue": Information spread into differents articles.
 
 
 
As for exemple, there is a [[Quest]] article, an [[Epic-quest]] article and finally a [[Mini-quest]] article. I think it would be better to have all of this into one article. as it would look probably better and we can still put direct redirect to the headers. Thoughts? --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 09:54, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
: In '''''general''''' I absolutely feel the same way: fewer more comprehensive articles are preferable to lots of bouncing from page to page to page. As long as each article is well-organized, links and redirects can always be pointed to specific sections within the larger whole. Like, really, [[skills]] is a pretty poor article, and could easily contain an overall explanation as well as information about the three subtypes.
 
 
 
: The only reason I'd be reluctant to consolidate all of the Quest articles is due to the ''unfathomable'' amount of crufty detal people have shoved into [[Mini-quests]]. I definitely think [[Quests]] should ''cover'' all three types, instead of sort of forgetting [[Epic Quests]] and [[Mini-quests]] exist except for a brief "Related" link. But a lot of what's found at [[Mini-quests]] now might be better off renamed to "List of mini-quests" or something, and still kept separate from the main article. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 18:33, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
== Say "Hi" to the Skill Infobox Template! ==
 
 
 
As title say, the [[Template:Skill]] is born after a lot of copy-paste from an other template made by [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] (thanks to him for his advices by the way) and a good amount of frustration after loosing more than half an hour because I forgot a damn }} in the code and failed to notice it earlier...
 
 
 
Seriously, I almost cry out of joy when it started working correctly...*Ahem*
 
 
 
While quite simple since skills have only one paramater, this template allows skills articles to looks as good as the others article (except quests ones they are next on the line) as you can see in the [[Quantum fireball]].
 
 
 
If you're not fond of the color/wording/placeholder picture/emoji of categories  please feel free to say so. Upgrades are always possible and feedback always welcome! --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 23:52, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
== Formatting change on Main Page ==
 
 
 
I'm trying something new with the set of links at the bottom of the gray box, on the main page. See what you think.
 
 
 
I never liked the way that section of the page rebalanced itself when shrinking, since its contents weren't all the same width (being different-length strings) and they got all wonky when they had to wrap. But I got inspired by some techniques I saw at [https://css-tricks.com/ CSS Tricks] and decided to try again. Finally admitting to myself that there was no way to make it look good without a border around each link was the key.
 
 
 
It's not ''perfect'', since with exactly the wrong page width you can still end up in this situation: https://imgur.com/a/q2B1gD1 — but with six items, there's really no way to avoid that. Can't win 'em all. I think it looks a lot better for the 4-wide, 3-wide, and 2-wide cases, though. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 18:03, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: Not gonna lie, it looks WAY better on mobile view right now. Good job! And now, I'm even asking myself if the same couldn't be done for the first part of the banner because right now it looks like this: https://imgur.com/qG1Z8pY. Having them in columns (which somehow is the case on desktop view but not on the mobile interface) would make the banner way more mobile friendly. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 18:29, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: Whoops! Sorry, that was actually my fault, a different change I was testing snuck in. Check it now, should be back to two columns. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 20:03, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::: (For some reason, the Godville devs eliminated the <code>padding-inline-start</code> width that normally protects the bullet character on lists. So, depending on the page width, it's possible for the bullets in the left column to slide right off the edge of the box. I was looking at trying to put the padding back, on that list. But I need to adjust the width for mobile, for that to work, so I'd intended to remove it until I could. Then I forgot.) -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 20:09, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{outdent|:::::}} Okay, I re-applied that change to the bullet list, but in a way that lets the columns wrap a '''lot''' tighter. The bullets should now be protected from falling off the page, and mobile devices should now see ''at least'' two columns, possibly all 3 for devices with wider screens. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 01:07, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:It keeps appearing as one column on my side, while the 6 below appear as two column. Maybe issue come from my screen size too. -- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 09:55, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: Perhaps, though judging by that screenshot I'm surprised it wouldn't be able to fit at least ''two'' columns now. I guess it's also possible your phone browser simply doesn't support CSS columns, or doesn't support their inheritance from surrounding elements. (The list isn't actually styled multi-column, instead the {{tag|div|open}} ''containing'' the list is multi-column. ...The links below (the newly-boxed ones), like the four main page boxes, are stacked with Flexbox which is something else entirely.)
 
 
 
:: How many columns do you see here, on your phone?
 
<div style="margin-left:3.2em; border: 1px solid #aaa; padding: 0.2em; columns: 2 5em; column-gap: 0.5em; overflow: auto;">
 
<ul style="margin-top: 0;">
 
<li>Item 1</li>
 
<li>Item 2</li>
 
<li>Item 3</li>
 
<li>Item 4</li>
 
<li>Item 5</li></ul>
 
</div>
 
:: And how about here?
 
<div style="margin-left:3.2em; border: 1px solid #aaa; padding: 0.2em;">
 
<ul style="margin-top: 0; columns: 2 5em; column-gap: 0.5em; overflow: auto; padding-inline-start: 1em;">
 
<li>Item 1</li>
 
<li>Item 2</li>
 
<li>Item 3</li>
 
<li>Item 4</li>
 
<li>Item 5</li></ul>
 
</div>
 
:: -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 11:22, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: Just checked, both appear as one column on my phone (on a side comment, dots doesn't appear on the second one on my phone). But as you say, my phone may not support some things as it is kinda old, the best would be to have more people feedback on this.
 
::: As a side note: I was wondering if we couldn't remove some categories that aren't really useful while you're trying to adjust that banner (and maybe trying to find a way for what we want people to see/use to be actually highlighted). Those categories to be removed IMHO would be:
 
:::*Pantheons : Which is a subcategory of gameplay, and not specialy important.
 
:::*Galleries : dead section
 
:::*Backstage : It's too unspecific
 
:::*Technical : I don't see the point to have this on the main banner except for advanced users
 
:::*Gods/Heroes/Guilds : I don't think people check those page to search for others gods/heroes/guilds
 
:::That would make a less dense banner I think. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 11:51, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::: Actually went with the changes, and there was no contestation sooo... xD --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 14:05, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
== Reducing article cruft while raising content visibility ==
 
 
 
There are two different goals that have been rattling around in my head for a while, and I've recently come to realize that it's possible to actually work towards ''both'' of them simultaneously.
 
 
 
==== Goal 1: Raise the visibility of our actionable Categories====
 
This is something {{u|WardPhoenix}} took steps towards recently, by adding [[:Category:Stubs]] and [[:Category:Pictures needed]] to the Main Page intro box. That's a start, but I think we can do more.
 
 
 
Note that this is about what I call "''actionable''" categories, meaning categories in which a page's presence means that it ''requires action'' in some form — usually, editing or maintenance. The two categories I just mentioned are the primary ones, but there could be others in the future. [[Special:WantedPages]] is the somewhat-reductive ur example of an actionable category.
 
 
 
The other type of category, which I'll call "collective" categories, are the ones where membership is just a way of classifying articles. Those are less useful to the average reader, because the wiki's coverage is so lacking for most categories.
 
 
 
[[:Category:Towns]] contains at least ''nearly'' every town in the game, sure. But [[:Category:Monsters]] only contains a tiny subset of all the known monsters, unlike [[List of Monsters]] which is much more complete. That issue is even worse for, say, [[:Category:Activatable Artifacts]], which only contains the artifact articles that use {{tlx|Artifact}} and properly indicate the subject's activatable status, which is a an even smaller subset of the already very small subset of artifacts that have an article at all.
 
 
 
Anyway, point is there's not much value to the average visitor in being pointed at those categories. But the ''actionable'' categories, those we do want people to know about, and explore, and hopefully perhaps be inspired to pitch in and thin their membership out a bit.
 
 
 
What's the point of all this, though? Well, that brings me to goal #2...
 
 
 
==== Goal 2: Reduce both the presence and visibility of ancient "technical" cruft ====
 
A few pages on the wiki, to be blunt, just shouldn't be articles. They're not about ''anything'' to do with Godville, mostly they're wiki-internal [[:Category:Technical]] articles containing content hastily copypasted from Wikipedia, offering poor coverage of general wiki concepts in a way that isn't helpful to our users. (If we want people to read about wiki concepts, we should point them at the '''actual''' Wikipedia documentation on those concepts, which is far more readable, polished, and useful. Horse's mouth and all that.) Worse, they usually haven't been updated in several years, and they weren't very good to begin with.
 
 
 
These articles mostly seem to have been created to give notice templates about their related concepts something to link to, which I guess felt necessary at the time. I'm talking about articles like:
 
* [[Stub]] (which the {{tlx|stub}} template's message links to)
 
* [[Merge]] which is linked to from {{tlx|Merge}}
 
* [[Redirect]] which is linked to from ''[[Merge]]'' and also uselessly sucky
 
* [[Picture]] which is one of the like 17 different picture-uploading explanations on the wiki, and is linked to from {{tlx|picture}} and ''several'' of the Guidelines articles as well. (Even though [[Creators Manual#Images]] is also a thing, and IMHO [[Picture]] dumbs it down a bit ''too'' far.)
 
* (and probably others, this isn't presented as a comprehensive list)
 
 
 
Several such articles correspond to a tracking (and therefore actionable) category, so they typically refer the reader to it with a poorly-formatted, easy to miss link. [[Stub]], for instance, has "''List of [[:Category:Stubs|Stubs]]''" tucked away at the bottom of the intro section. [[Merge]], OTOH, doesn't even do the courtesy of linking to [[:Category:Proposed mergers]] — despite the fact that it would be ''good'' to have people know what, if any, pages are in that category.
 
 
 
====The proposal====
 
So, like I said, it occurs to me that those two goals can be achieved in tandem. Here's what I think we should do:
 
# Take what little ''useful'' content those articles contain, and place it at the top of the associated actionable-category page. So the tiny bit of stuff from [[Stub]] that isn't just badly-Xeroxed Wikipedia policy would go onto the [[:Category:Stubs]] page, so that it displays above the listing of category members.
 
# Do away with those articles '''completely''', redirecting them to the Category page.
 
 
 
So that way, when {{tlx|stub}} says "This article is a [[stub]].", clicking that link won't take the user to an article of minimal value. Instead, it'll take them ''directly'' to the list of stubs at [[:Category:Stubs]], with a brief explanation of how to create, expand, tag, and un-tag stub articles displayed right there at the top. It can even direct anyone interested to the [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Stub|Wikipedia:Stub]] article "for much more information".
 
 
 
Thoughts? -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 13:36, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
====Feedback====
 
 
 
Basically, can't disagree. Not really much more to say, you said everything. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 15:24, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 
: Acutally did a first round of edits, [[Stub]] have been redirect to [[:Category:Stubs]] and all Categories Quest/Monster/Equipment/Artifact/Skills have been redirect to their list.--[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 15:48, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: Woah, regarding your recent edits, I think there may have been some miscommunication.
 
::# You can't redirect category pages to articles. (Because then, how would you see the list of members?)
 
::# You can't even redirect categories to other categories.<br/>(It's a [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion#Redirecting_categories|MediaWiki limitation]]. Instead of doing what you probably intend, it just breaks things.)
 
::# We wouldn't ''want'' to redirect the categories, anyway. What would be the point of having them, if we did?
 
 
 
::This proposal was about going in the other direction — redirecting e.g. [[Stub]] to [[:Category:Stubs]] ('''after''' moving the useful information to the [[:Category:Stubs]] page first). But not doing anything with the '''collective''' Categories. They serve their purpose as-is, the only thing we've changed in the past is ''linking'' less to, say, [[:Category:Monsters]] and more to [[List of Monsters]] (as the more useful of the two).
 
 
 
::But a <code><nowiki>#REDIRECT</nowiki></code> should '''never''' be placed on any page in the [[Special:Categories|Category:]] namespace. It won't actually redirect (if it goes outside that namespace), and it won't do the right thing if it's within the namespace. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 15:56, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: This is when a live chat would be useful xD Anyway we did the revert, and for the stubs article there was no useful information so just redirected quickly. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 16:00, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::: Easy enough to clean up, and no harm done. Yeah, MediaWiki's treatment of Category pages is... just ''weird'', and creates a lot of issues that require them to be handled specially. You can point anything you like ''to'' the Category pages, and even treat them ''as'' article pages if you like (which is what gave me the idea to move our technical content there, where it made sense), but there are a lot of traps in what will work '''from''' Category pages (and only Category pages) to the rest of the wiki. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 16:03, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
[[Merge]] have been redirected to the template, with the documentation having a link to the wikipedia page. [[Picture]] have been redirected to the [[Creators Manual]]. [[Redirect]] have been redirected to the wikipedia page (ironic). --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 11:58, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
== Quest Infobox was already there. ==
 
 
 
Aside from the global issues of Mini-quests (see [[Talk:Mini-quests]]), the {{tlx|Quest}} infobox seems quite ready to deploy and is perfectly usable on every kind of quest article (type=mini/normal/epic).
 
 
 
Maybe the template will have additionnal parameters for mini-quest later on, but not in short term.
 
 
 
[[Catch the worm before the early bird]] is the first to receive the template if you want an exemple.
 
 
 
As always, any feedback is welcome. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 13:52, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: That looks great, {{u|WardPhoenix}}. Nice work.
 
:: I see that there's an option for ignoring that there is no image... is there a way to insert the quest-progress template to display where the picture would be, if someone did not want to create a pic? --[[User:SourceRunner|SourceRunner]] ([[User talk:SourceRunner|talk]]) 15:50, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: I didn't found a way to add the {{tlx|Diaryquest}} at the same place as the picture '''yet''' (it doesn't display properly). But it is possible to insert it in the description parameter. Then it's possible to add {{para|ignore-no-image|<var>yes</var>}} to not have the picture needed banner and leave the article with the placeholder image. Obviously, t's also placable in the introduction of the text, one template doesn't prohibit the other I think. I'll try to dig if I found something, or maybe [[User:FeRDNYC]] will know a solution. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 18:30, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::: You're awesome. Thanks for being willing to figure something out. It's not a dire thing, I was just thinking that some quest writers might just want to put the progress bar where the picture is, instead. But hey, we could make it in a sandbox, screen-shot it, and then load the screenshot in as the picture, right?
 
:::: Seriously, you've done great work on this, Ward. --[[User:SourceRunner|SourceRunner]] ([[User talk:SourceRunner|talk]]) 13:30, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::::: I guess a screenshot would work, but I would have prefered to have a more direct way. By the way, I noticed that {{tlx|Diaryquest}} can also be put as a caption and so will appear just below the placeholder picture. It doesn't look really great but still something.
 
::::: Didn't found a way to hide the picture without ruining everything, this exceeds my meager skills in the coding of that template (and I tried every stupid idea I thought about). --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 14:57, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::::: I'll take a look, I can definitely come up with a special {{para|mode|infobox}} switch for {{tlx|Diaryquest}} that formats it all special-like, if nothing else. I'd definitely prefer that to a screenshot. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 18:03, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::::::: I have posted an Idea™ over at [[Template talk:Quest#Incorporating Diaryquest|the template Talk page]]. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 20:01, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
After some rework following the feedback (thanks [[User:SourceRunner|SourceRunner]]!) , I'd say the template have reach a new state of finished, many thanks to [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] for his work. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 14:16, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
== The template you didn't know you needed ==
 
 
 
Added a new {{tlx|Top}} template to the GodWiki. This add a floating "Back to the top" button to, well, get back to the top of the page in a single click. Useful for very long page I'd say, like [[SummerWiki 2019]] or the [[GodWiki's Lore Compendium]].
 
 
 
What do you think about it? --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 14:04, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: '''++''' -- [[User:S624|S624]] ([[User talk:S624|talk]]) 16:32, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
== Double Redirect Page Issue ==
 
 
 
After wandering through the red link page list, I stumbled upon the [[Special:DoubleRedirects|double redirect page]].
 
While I did fix one of them, the second one I'm afraid cannot be fixed without intervention by a database operator.
 
The page in question has the title "Godville_(Town) " (which is the same as the [[Godville (Town)]] page just with an extra non-breaking white space at the end of it.)
 
 
 
The problem is that MediaWiki internally strips the extra white space off the end of the page title before actually doing anything with it. This means that from the front end, you can't access the erroneous [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/Godville_(Town)%C2%A0 Godville_(Town) ] page at all. From what I was able to recreate on my own private wiki, the only way to fix it is going into the "page" table in the database and looking for a row with "Godville_(Town) " or "476f6476696c6c655f28546f776e29c2a0" in the "page_title" column. (The "47...a0" is the url encoded version of "Godville_(Town) " which my wiki automatically changed it to after I manually edited a page on my private wiki to have that name.) A wiki/database operator would have to go in and manually change the page title of the relevant row to remove the trailing space so that we can actually edit/delete the erroneous page, or something. I've spent the past few hours trying to find a solution online and by experimenting on my own wiki and the only way I've been able to fix such an error on my wiki is by manually editing the database.
 
 
 
You can spot the two pages when you search for "Godville (Town)" (eg: [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?search=Godville+%28Town%29&title=Special%3ASearch&profile=default&fulltext=1 this search])
 
 
 
It's not exactly a big problem, but, on the search results it means that two identical "Godville (Town)" pages are listed, one of them redirecting to [[Godville (Disambiguation)]] and the other being the [[Godville (Town)|page proper]]. It's more of an annoyance factor than an issue. Though, the million dollar question is how such pages actually managed to come into existence since MediaWiki sanitizes page titles...
 
 
 
{{anchor|malformed-pages}}Other pages with this issue:
 
{| class="wikitable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"
 
! Page !! Redirect? !! Search link !! Encoded equivalent
 
|-
 
|[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/3D_Interface%C2%A0 3D Interface ]||''redirect''||[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?search=3D+Interface%C2%A0&title=Special%3ASearch&profile=default&fulltext=1 search]||<code>33445f496e74657266616365c2a0</code>
 
|-
 
|[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/Equipment%C2%A0 Equipment ]||''redirect''||[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?search=Equipment%C2%A0&title=Special%3ASearch&profile=default&fulltext=1 search]||<code>45717569706d656e74c2a0</code>
 
|-
 
|[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/Gold_bricks%C2%A0 Gold bricks ]||''redirect''||[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?search=Gold+bricks%C2%A0&title=Special%3ASearch&profile=default&fulltext=1 search]||<code>476f6c645f627269636b73c2a0</code>
 
|-
 
|[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/Grayscaled_Dragon%C2%A0 Grayscaled Dragon ]||''redirect''||[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?search=Grayscaled+Dragon%C2%A0&title=Special%3ASearch&profile=default&fulltext=1 search]||<code>477261797363616c65645f447261676f6ec2a0</code>
 
|-
 
|[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/Ideabox%C2%A0 Ideabox ]||'''NOT''' a redirect||[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?search=Ideabox%C2%A0&title=Special%3ASearch&profile=default&fulltext=1 search]||<code>49646561626f78c2a0</code>
 
|-
 
|[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/Lightsaber-Toothed_Tiger%C2%A0 Lightasber-Toothed Tiger ]||''redirect''||[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?search=Lightsaber-Toothed+Tiger%C2%A0&title=Special%3ASearch&profile=default&fulltext=1 search]||<code>4c6967687473616265722d546f6f746865645f5469676572c2a0</code>
 
|-
 
|[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/Pets%C2%A0 Pets ]||''redirect''||[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?search=Pets%C2%A0&title=Special%3ASearch&profile=default&fulltext=1 search]||<code>50657473c2a0</code>
 
|-
 
|[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/Probability%C2%A0 Probability ]||''redirect''||[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?search=Probability%C2%A0&title=Special%3ASearch&profile=default&fulltext=1 search]||<code>50726f626162696c697479c2a0</code>
 
|-
 
|[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/Temple%C2%A0 Temple ]||''redirect''||[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?search=Temple%C2%A0&title=Special%3ASearch&profile=default&fulltext=1 search]||<code>54656d706c65c2a0</code>
 
|-
 
|[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/Voice_of_god%C2%A0 Voice of god ]||''redirect''||[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?search=Voice+of+god%C2%A0&title=Special%3ASearch&profile=default&fulltext=1 search]||<code>566f6963655f6f665f676f64c2a0</code>
 
|-
 
|[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/Trollbridge%C2%A0 Trollbridge ]||''redirect''||[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?search=Trollbridge%C2%A0&title=Special%3ASearch&profile=default&fulltext=1 search]||<code>54726f6c6c627269646765c2a0</code>
 
|-
 
|[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/Godville_(Town)%C2%A0 Godville (Town) ]||''redirect''||[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?search=Godville+(Town)%C2%A0&title=Special%3ASearch&profile=default&fulltext=1 search]||<code>476f6476696c6c655f28546f776e29c2a0</code>
 
|}
 
I found these by searching the source of the [[Special:AllPages|all pages]] special page for "%C2%A0" in the web developer/inspector console in Firefox. these are only the ones in the main namespace, I did see that some pages in the [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/Talk:Pet_Personalities%C2%A0 Talk] namespace were also affected though. Perhaps I should go in and comb through the talk pages to see which ones are affected in that namespace too if this is actually reported as a bug?
 
 
 
I'm not sure where to go with this, but I felt I couldn't just do nothing after researching it this much. [[Talk:Main_Page/Archive#Sidebar_problem|From what I could see in the archive]], should I just submit a bug report via the feedback menu in-game linking to this topic? Also, sorry if this topic is a bit bulky or long, or not in the right place -- [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 04:26, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
: That's the same issue already talked about at [[Talk:Ideabox#The reason this article gets stuck on Special page listings|Talk:Ideabox]]. Basically, as you said, there is nothing we can do about it without admin access. I dunno if it was already reported as a bug to the admin, I'll leave that question to the oldest member. As for the why, those "phantom clone" exists, I'd take a guess and say they're probably artifacts of the starting years of the GodWiki, where countless of articles where created, and probably a lot of mistakes with it. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 13:42, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: Sorry I didn't reply to this sooner, I'm travelling for work at the moment and spending most of my time in an environment with no internet access. :)
 
 
 
:: {{u|Emptysora}}, I think it's a ''very'' good idea to report this to the Devs under the Ideabox->Other category. When submitting reports like this to the devs, '''''be very, ''very'' concise'''''. Focus on a short description of the issue, and a clear action to resolve it. If they have any questions or need clarification they'll PM you on Godville (they ask me to explain more detail when I submit bug reps, other, and <s>terrible</s> awesome ideas all the time).
 
 
 
:: If I understand correctly, the table above that's introduced with {{tqi|Other pages with this issue:}} means that you've found other malformed page titles in the Godwiki? I added an {{tlc|anchor|malformed-pages}} so that if you need to you can link directly to <code>https://wiki.godvillegame.com/Main_Page#malformed-pages</code> when you message the Devs about it.
 
 
 
:: I've noticed that same issue with the <code>Godville (town)&amp;nbsp;</code> page as well, and it's been somewhere on my mental list of stuff to dig into and chase down to report, so I'm absolutely delighted you've looked into it and really done the research to figure it out. I'm a ''massive'' dork and I really love bug hunting, which explains why I have 19 accepted bug reports in my Ideabox->Approved list, haha. I see that you have 1 Gratitude point, if you report this and it's fixed you'll earn yourself another one! 😄 -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 21:22, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: Just sent the bug report. I like finding bugs myself, so when I see things like this, I don't usually rest until I've figured out what is wrong. I'm pretty sure my gratitude point is from a different bug report (the extra "%" at the end of the "you need XX%% godpower" message on mobile). Well, all we can do is wait. if they use software like PhpMyAdmin (which my private wiki has) it'll be pretty easy to find and modify the pages, otherwise they'd have to use an SQL console. I noticed that whenever such pages are forcibly edited in, creating/deleting/moving a page (anything that updates the "page" table) causes those titles to become hex encoded. I basically suggested they be renamed on the pattern of "*_(old)" so we could go in later and deal with them if need be. I doubt we'll keep the pages since the last time they have been modified is in like 2010 / 2011. I find it funny, just a few days ago, I was too shy to even create my own user page, and now I'm doing this. Thanks {{u|Djonni}} and {{u|WardPhoenix}}. -- [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 21:54, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::: Great work, {{u|Emptysora}}, I'm glad we have your sharp eyes and detective skills on the case. In my experience, if a bug rep is going to be addressed, it will be done quite promptly, usually within a few days. If it hasn't been fixed in a couple of months, we can try reworking the report to be more succinct, or persuasive, or have a clearer resolution and call to action, and resubmit. But I expect we'll see this old problem cleared up pretty promptly now thanks to your work! -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 21:58, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::::: Yeah, if it doesn't go through, I'm going to email the support address directly since email can support images. Images can't be sent via the bug report form after all. That's kind of why I put the search links in there too. I hope it's resolved soon, that '''#PhantomPage''' as it was called on the [[Talk:Ideabox#The reason this article gets stuck on Special page listings|Talk:Ideabox]] page was bugging me. -- [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 22:03, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::::: Well, I guess I have good news. The bug report I submitted is listed in my "approved submissions" page, and I can't find the "phantom" pages anymore. Seems like I have to admit that the devs are awesome (although, we already know that), and thank them. Problem Resolved. -- [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 17:11, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
== Modification to navboxes ==
 
 
 
Before I go ahead and do this, I wanted some opinions on this idea (which certainly won’t be my last). It’s regarding the navboxes. With the way they are set up right now, on larger navboxes, like the Pets one, it is hard to see where the current page is listed in the navbox.
 
 
 
This can be a bit trying, for example, if you’re trying to see if your pet has an ability from the navbox. What I’m basically suggesting is a slight rewrite of the navboxes such that the links be changed to a template call like <code><nowiki>{{lnk|Link|Display}}</nowiki></code> instead of <code><nowiki>[[Link|Display]]</nowiki></code>. The “Lnk” template would then detect if the current page is the linked article, and either embolden or link the text based on that. A working demo is in my [[User:Emptysora/sandbox|sandbox]] and shown below.
 
 
 
It would look like this: {{Fake link|Link 1}}• {{Fake link|Link 2}}• '''Link 3'''• {{Fake link|Link 4}}
 
 
 
'''(((((EDIT: The above Template calls have been removed to avoid having them break things when I modify the sandbox — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 15:43, 18 November 2019 (UTC))))))'''
 
 
 
What are your thoughts? — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 01:53, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
: Errr..... I don't know if I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say but... Isn't that already the case? I mean when you are in a page which is included in navbox, the page name within the navbox is black instead of blue, which make it very noticeable.
 
: If the link is not blacked (which is the case of the sun dog in pets for example) it's because the link in the navbox is actually a redirect and not the real page article (which is an error obviously, but I think it's actually the [[Sun dog]] that may need to be moved to [[Sun Dog]]).. -- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 09:46, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
 
:Nevermind, Sun dog is actually the good capitalization, fixed the navbox link and the text of the pet. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 10:34, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: So it apparently does do that, weird, it didn’t do it for me. However I guess that brings me to a different thing I wanted to bring up. I don’t feel like we should be having redirect pages for alternate capitalization. That’s not the point of a redirect. These redirects show up in the search autocomplete, which is annoying sometimes (try typing in “boss” and count how many unique pages are there). If a redirect has to be created just to achieve this, the template really should be modified. That’s not to mention the way that Navbox handles this linking process (See [[Template:Navbox items]], it’s archaic. Ie: what if we have more than a hundred items in a Navbox? The hundredth and so on fails to be displayed. Not to mention, having to call a sub template like that doesn’t seem that intuitive. I guess, what I’ll do, is modify the Navbox template in my sandbox, and update here when I’m done for feedback.
 
 
 
:: Capitalization should not be a factor in whether or not the link is bold or linked. — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 20:34, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: I don't have the first clue about the behind the scenes creation of templates so staying away from that but seems that [[Sun Dog]] is the correct capitalization so undid the above change from [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]], moved pages & redirects around so that Sun Dog is the main page & the only things that [[Special:WhatLinksHere/Sun_dog|link]] to [[Sun dog]] are deity, champion or guild pages. Both the pet & dogs navbox both show '''bold''' when on the Sun Dog page now. -- [[User:S624|S624]] ([[User talk:S624|talk]]) 21:45, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{Outdent|:::}} It does seems that there is inconsistency between how the pets are nammed between diary entry and superhero page, which is why I assumed the false capitalization. I left a bug report about that to admins. Thanks for correcting [[User:S624|S624]].
 
As for the redirects and navboxes, I don't really understand what you are trying to say there [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]]. Many of those redirect page are born from people writing an already existing article or from recapitalization / typo / name change/ <s>Obi-Wan Kenobi</s>. And since we can't delete those pages, well they are here. Better to have redirect on them instead of blank pages.
 
And I don't see the link you make between redirect and navboxes, they are differents things, abd ideally, a link in the navbox should lead to the correct page, not the redirect one. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 21:58, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
: No, what I’m saying is that capitalization shouldn’t matter in whether or not the page is linked or emboldened, eg: if the box says “Sun Dog” it should be bold on '''Sun dog''' ''and'' '''Sun Dog''', even if one of those pages is a redirect. (which it currently doesn’t do). This is important because if the capitalization of the content page’s title ever changes, it breaks the navboxes. (EG: if Sun dog was moved to Sun Dog, or vice versa) I agree that the link in the navbox *should* point to the page and not a redirect, but whether or not it does shouldn’t break the template.
 
 
 
: In other words, I’m trying to change the templates such that in-game capitalization does not dictate how we have to list things in navboxes. It’s just less of a chance for confusion. Arguably, the fact that this ''did'' confuse me, might be proof that is a decent thing to consider.
 
 
 
: As for the redirects, I use Wikipedia a lot (which uses an extension called CirrusSearch) so they have redirects hidden from search results. I assumed this was default behavior in MW (which clearly isn’t the case). So, I doubt there’s a reasonable fix we can do to resolve that:
 
 
 
: '''1)''' Either, we delete capitalization redirects. Search suggestions won’t display the five redirects all to [[Boss-monsters]]. But, if someone typed “Boss-M” [[Boss-monsters]] won’t appear. That leads into what you said about those pages existing because people created them assuming they didn’t exist. Ie: the pages are liable to be created again, ruining the point of deleting them. '''2)''' We somehow manage to convince the admins to install an extension like CirrusSearch (which odds of happening, I bet, are 0%). This would transparently hide the redirects resolving *both* issues. This implies: '''3)''' We do nothing. The redirects that clog the search suggestions potentially continue to either annoy or confuse readers, but since the redirects *are* present, nobody will get confused about whether or not a page exists.
 
 
 
: Apparently, MW (until 1.23) used to have a setting you could change to hide redirects from search results. I’d love to hear why they thought it was brilliant to force wikis to always have redirects included instead of leaving <code>srredirects</code> and defaulting it to <code>true</code>.
 
 
 
: Anyway, I’ll modify the templates in my sandbox and show you what I mean. We can discuss that after that. — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 23:59, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: I just modified [[Template:Navbox items/Documentation]] adding in example code for a slight hack to get 100+ items in a Navbox list (multiple items template calls, the second and subsequent omitting the first unnamed parameter) so, I guess we can ignore that one. I’m only going to try to do the bold thing. That way we don’t have to manually modify the navboxes each time the pages are moved and shuffled around.
 
 
 
:: I thought the navbox template hadn’t been edited in years which is why I thought to overhaul it. That’s not the case, however. No need to change something that already has been updated and works (which is why I’m going to do the bold thing) — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 02:13, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: Well, a couple things :)
 
 
 
::: Firstly, I do see your point about capitalisation in navboxes, ''but''. Capitalisation changes infrequently in the game, and we consider capitalisation an important part of the Godwiki's accuracy. So the statement {{tqi|That way we don’t have to manually modify the navboxes each time the pages are moved and shuffled around}} actually doesn't make a lot of sense on this wiki: if the capitalisation of the navbox entry and the capitalisation of the page don't match, ''one is wrong'' and ''should'' be changed. In many wikis there are genuine debates about how something should be capitalised, but not here. If someone moves or corrects a page, then we do need to go around fixing capitalisation elsewhere that it's wrong, and that includes navboxes. That's what we did when you pointed out the Sun Dog issue. :)
 
 
 
::: Don't get me wrong, I approve of the general idea of making stuff work smarter, but personally I think that in this case, all it would really achieve is hiding an error, making it less likely to be fixed. Since game items ''do'' have a canonical capitalisation, both the page titles and navbox should reflect this and match. Anything else is wrong.
 
 
 
::: That said, I certainly invite improvements to templates and their documentation at any opportunity. But you'll often find there's clear reasons why some things are done some ways, such as {{tlf|navbox list}}:
 
 
 
:::* Calling a sub-template allows for the entry of free text of necessary, because:
 
:::* We don't have Lua, or string parser functions. So we have *very* limited techniques when it comes to intelligently figuring out what the content of a parameter is, other than a straight <code>{{#ifeq:</code> or <code>{{#switch:</code>. So,
 
:::*No unlimited parameters here &mdash; any supported parameters must be hard-coded into templates.
 
 
 
::: And to a Wikipedia user, the word {{tqi|archaic}} would be pretty accurate for any Templates here; on Wikipedia, even the simplest templates were converted to Lua long ago, and do things like prettifying section links,  that we straight-up can't do.
 
 
 
::: That's not intended to discourage you from figuring out ways to improve the navbox templates, and of something needs overhauling then that's cool too. :)
 
 
 
::: Oh, and another thing, heh. {{tqi|1) Either, we delete capitalization redirects.}} Nope, "''we''" don't. No user has deletion rights, and I would be surprised (delighted, and surprised) of the Devs would have the time to do a minor perfect like that, as we have ~8 years of accumulated not-deleted pages to wade through. If at some point in future a new admin is appointed to replace the long-gone Spode, then that would definitely be something on {{his or her|or=y}} agenda.
 
 
 
::: Honestly, for Wikipedia users, this place has many <s>frustrations</s> quirks. It's somewhat ''less'' than a vanilla Wikimedia, as you've discovered. But switching off redirects in search results seems like an excellent thing to suggest (Ideabox->Other), as they are definitely a clutter! -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 03:35, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::: Couple more things! :) Firstly, apologies if I'm not making complete sense, I'm gravely undercafiennated and just boarded a 4:30am train across the country, so I'm a touch addled. Which also contributes to, secondly, I hope my reply just now didn't seem curt or harsh in any way, it definitely wasn't meant to. And thirdly, on your point about no more than 100 terms in {{tlf|navbox items}}...
 
 
 
:::: I can see a benefit to adding a recursive call to navbox items at the end, <s>something like:</s> Moving this to [[Template talk:Navbox items]]! -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 04:28, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{outdent|:::::}}
 
I had no idea recursive calls even worked, I thought they just result in the template name being included in bold...? Also, I’m not off-put. Though I definitely was concerned when I realized the template was recently edited. I used “archaic” not to mean “old in a rude way” (Sorry if I came off that way) more just “old.” I’ve been writing in my spare time recently, so words like that pop in when I’m not paying close attention.
 
 
 
As for the deletion, I know, I just typed that for form/convenience. (Ie: Mark for deletion).
 
 
 
As for capitalization, I can respect that, but, unless you explicitly have said pet, or encounter said monster, and reach the wiki from there, ''with the express intent of finding such an issue'' you’ll never realize the capitalization is off anyway, (and it will likely cause confusion as I experienced).  If, despite this, you think we should still keep it the same, that’s fine. I just wanted to point out that there’s probably only a handful of people keeping it this way would matter to (namely us).
 
 
 
So, do we prioritize convenience for editors / maintaining consistency in-game, or do we prioritize convenience for readers. I’m fine with either, though, since I read a lot, I’m leaning the latter (obviously).
 
 
 
Heh, modifying templates for the better is one of the things I wanted to do. When I first made this topic, I barely read the source for it. Sorry. — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 08:18, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
: One of the reasons I was confused by redirects, is because on mobile app Wikipedia, search results may say “Redirected from: X” but it doesn’t when it’s just a capitalization thing. That’s why I assumed the redirect thing was by default.
 
 
 
: Also, I don’t think there’s a way to “turn off” redirects per se. if there is, I’d like to know, since it’s an issue on my private wiki, and I’m too lazy to install CirrusSearch right now. — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 08:35, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: Very short on time but just had to say: 😆 {{tqi|with the express intent of finding such an issue you’ll never realize the capitalization is off anyway...}}
 
:: The longer you spend pottering around the wiki, watching recent changes, and seeing the edits made by non-regu are wiki contributors, the more surprised you'll be able what people do and don't notice and keep track of here. This game definitely attracts cataloguers, meticulous record keepers, and attention-to-detail personalities... We would know, since most of those who read these words will be that kind of person! 😉 -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 08:54, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: I have a sudden random thought that remind me why capitalisation (or at least spelling ) is important.  [[Double eyepatch]], [[Double eye-patch]] and [[Double eye patch]] all exists and are different items. -- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 09:54, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::: New personal goal:
 
 
 
:::: {{diaryquest|text=Submit "{{fake redlink|Double-eye patch}}" to the Ideabox and get it added to the game|status=0|title=Djonni's Diary}}
 
 
 
:::: ;) -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 09:59, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{outdent|:::::}}
 
Heh. Maybe I should try double-eye-patch or double-eyepatch then.
 
 
 
In the very least, on the wiki, we should be consistent. I don’t know if there’s a [[GodWiki:Capitalization]] or similar page, which if none exists, we should probably create one. If we have, or make, one, we could link it in the Guideline articles. — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 10:47, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
: Just modified the initial post to remove the template calls so they don’t break when I inevitably forget this discussion exists and change my sandbox.
 
 
 
: I’ll abandon the link thing. I still think we should create a caps article if one doesn’t exist. It’d be a nice resource to reference while I’m editing metadata/redirects. — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 15:43, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
== Encouraging use of user talk pages ==
 
 
 
So, I've written [[User:FeRDNYC/User Talk Message|this message]], which I'm thinking of going around and (manually) placing on the User talk pages of everyone whose User: page is redirected to the main-article space, to point out that they won't receive talk-page message notifications unless they use their corresponding user talk page.
 
 
 
(This covers two types of users:)
 
# Those with user talk pages like [[User talk:BlueStapler]], [[User talk:Hershey Almighty]], etc. that are redirected to [[Talk:BlueStapler]], [[Talk:Hershey Almighty]], etc.
 
# Users like [[User:Hairplug4men]], [[User:EJ Rose]], etc. with redirected User pages, who have no redirect for their user talk page.
 
 
 
Basically it's about 50 people, I have a whole list. '''Most''' of them are probably not active users, but I'd plan to contact them all regardless. If they never see it, oh well. If they do, then great.
 
 
 
I just wanted to solicit feedback before I start.
 
 
 
With [[Special:ExpandTemplates]], you can see what the message would look like when it's placed on {{u|Djonni}}'s talk page (as an example). Click the following url:
 
 
 
{{fullurl:Special:ExpandTemplates|wpInput=%7b%7bsafesubst:User:FeRDNYC/User+Talk+Message%7d%7d&wpContextTitle=User+talk:Djonni}}
 
 
 
You'll see the formatted message at the bottom of the page. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 01:51, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::It seems some people keeps on redirect their user page to another page for some reasons, tried to leave messages but it don't seem to reach through. Well it's not really a serious issue but still happens. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 16:03, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: Honestly, though, that's ''fine'' and if people want to do it then more power to 'em. (There are all sorts of reasons why someone might want to, including '''intending''' their user page to be editable by other people. That's the reason {{user|Djonni}} specifically gives on his [[User talk:Djonni|talk page]].) If people want to keep a "god" page in the article namespace, as long as it's properly categorized no harm done. It's ''only'' when the corresponding talk page isn't redirected '''back''' to User talk: space that there's a down side. But it works just fine to maintain a non-<code>User:Foo</code> userpage at <code>Foo</code>, with a <code>Talk:Foo</code> page that redirects to <code>User talk:foo</code>, and doing that means they won't miss notifications. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 20:49, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::: Sorry, the example-message URL above was "down" for a couple of weeks, as I'd repurposed the page in question to do canvassing for the JanuWiki post-mortem and forgot to set it back afterwards. Anyway, it's working again now. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 16:54, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::::: I'm joining this conversation pretty late, and [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] hasn't been around the wiki since April... does anyone know if he went ahead with the plan? I think it's a very good idea, speaking from my own experience with an unredirected talk page! -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 09:03, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
I don't think he end up doing it, but I could be wrong.--[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 13:29, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:Yeah, alright. I found his draft at [[User:FeRDNYC/User Talk Message]]. I think it's a bit wordy personally, and gets a little lost in the weeds about the history of notifications on mediawiki sites, and needs a heavy edit. But I think his idea is really good and we should work up a better draft and go ahead with it.
 
 
 
:It's a shame he isn't around at the moment (I'll leave him a talkback regardless!) because he went to the trouble of compiling a list of the affected users and we don't have it! I'll have to do that myself. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 15:07, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
== {{tlx|Navboxlists}} update ==
 
 
 
So, on my Sandbox page, I have been working to see how we could improve the lists included in the {{tlx|navboxlists}}, I copy pasted the work above so you can see how the edit button appears and how the editable content would appear, while the 8 is how it is at the moment in the lists.
 
 
 
I also tried different format ,my personnal preference going to the one presented in the -2-.
 
Adding the edit button directly in the list like in 5 or 6 are risky because it became easyy to break the whole thing.
 
 
 
The pros of this update:
 
* Easier to update lists, since we can edit directly to the letter, instead of having to scroll to the whole alphabet in the edit box.
 
* The deities with old phones that doesn't have enough RAM (like mine...) will no longer have crash issues when trying to update the lists from mobile.
 
 
 
The cons of this update:
 
* Well, it's obviously not as good looking.
 
* Columns width are inconsistent (maybe can be fixed)
 
 
 
Thoughts?
 
 
 
: I've been watching your work on this with interest, trying to think along with you about how best to handle this. I agree, it would be good to find an elegant solution.
 
 
 
: I'll add one more point to the list of cons with separated tables:
 
 
 
:* List is no longer sortable in a useful way
 
 
 
: Inconsistent column widths can be fixed, simply by setting fixed <code>%</code> widths to each column in each table.
 
 
 
: I have an alternative solution that I've been working on mentally. It's very hard to give a demonstration, however, as the solution requires making a subpage for every section. And it definitely has its own pros and cons. I'll try and explain it as clearly as I can.
 
 
 
: On the ''List of...'' page, you would have a table that looks like this:
 
 
 
<pre>
 
{| class="wikitable sortable" style="width: 100%;"
 
|- id="Title"
 
! colspan="3" |<big>Artifacts</big>
 
|- id="Index"
 
!  colspan="3"  | <big>[[#s_0|0]] [[#s_1|1]] [[#s_2|2]] [[#s_5|5]] [[#s_6|6]] [[#s_8|8]] [[#s_A|A]] [[#s_B|B]] [[#s_C|C]] [[#s_D|D]] [[#s_E|E]] [[#s_F|F]] [[#s_G|G]] [[#s_H|H]] [[#s_I|I]] [[#s_J|J]] [[#s_K|K]] [[#s_L|L]] [[#s_M|M]] [[#s_N|N]] [[#s_O|O]] [[#s_P|P]] [[#s_Q|Q]] [[#s_R|R]] [[#s_S|S]] [[#s_T|T]] [[#s_U|U]] [[#s_V|V]] [[#s_W|W]] [[#s_X|X]] [[#s_Y|Y]] [[#s_Z|Z]] [[#s_ZZSpecial|Special]]</big>
 
|- id="sort separator"
 
| colspan="3" style="display: none" | <br>
 
|- id="s_0"
 
!  colspan="3"  style="text-align: center;" data-sort-value="0" | <big>- 0 -&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</big><small>[[#Title|Top]]</small><div class="plainlinks" style="float:right;">[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=List_of_Artifacts/0&action=edit Edit 0]</div>
 
|-
 
{{:List of Artifacts/0}}
 
|- id="s_1"
 
!  colspan="3"  style="text-align: center;" data-sort-value="1" | <big>- 1 -&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</big><small>[[#Title|Top]]</small><div class="plainlinks" style="float:right;">[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=List_of_Artifacts/1&action=edit Edit 1]</div>
 
|-
 
{{:List of Artifacts/1}}
 
|- id="s_2"
 
!  colspan="3"  style="text-align: center;" data-sort-value="2" | <big>- 2 -&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</big><small>[[#Title|Top]]</small><div class="plainlinks" style="float:right;">[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=List_of_Artifacts/2&action=edit Edit 2]</div>
 
|-
 
{{:List of Artifacts/2}}
 
|- id="s_3"
 
!  colspan="3"  style="text-align: center;" data-sort-value="3" | <big>- 3 -&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</big><small>[[#Title|Top]]</small><div class="plainlinks" style="float:right;">[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=List_of_Artifacts/3&action=edit Edit 3]</div>
 
|-
 
{{:List of Artifacts/3}}
 
.
 
.
 
.</pre>
 
{| class="wikitable sortable" style="width: 100%;"
 
|- id="Title"
 
! colspan="3" |<big>Artifacts</big>
 
|- id="Index"
 
!  colspan="3"  | <big>[[#s_0|0]] [[#s_1|1]] [[#s_2|2]] [[#s_5|5]] [[#s_6|6]] [[#s_8|8]] [[#s_A|A]] [[#s_B|B]] [[#s_C|C]] [[#s_D|D]] [[#s_E|E]] [[#s_F|F]] [[#s_G|G]] [[#s_H|H]] [[#s_I|I]] [[#s_J|J]] [[#s_K|K]] [[#s_L|L]] [[#s_M|M]] [[#s_N|N]] [[#s_O|O]] [[#s_P|P]] [[#s_Q|Q]] [[#s_R|R]] [[#s_S|S]] [[#s_T|T]] [[#s_U|U]] [[#s_V|V]] [[#s_W|W]] [[#s_X|X]] [[#s_Y|Y]] [[#s_Z|Z]] [[#s_ZZSpecial|Special]]</big>
 
|- id="sort separator"
 
| colspan="3" style="display: none" | <br>
 
|- id="s_0"
 
!  colspan="3"  style="text-align: center;" data-sort-value="0" | <big>- 0 -&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</big><small>[[#Title|Top]]</small><div class="plainlinks" style="float:right;">[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=List_of_Artifacts/0&action=edit Edit 0]</div>
 
|-
 
|<code><nowiki>{{:List of Artifacts/0}}</nowiki></code>
 
|- id="s_1"
 
!  colspan="3"  style="text-align: center;" data-sort-value="1" | <big>- 1 -&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</big><small>[[#Title|Top]]</small><div class="plainlinks" style="float:right;">[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=List_of_Artifacts/1&action=edit Edit 1]</div>
 
|-
 
|<code><nowiki>{{:List of Artifacts/1}}</nowiki></code>
 
|- id="s_2"
 
!  colspan="3"  style="text-align: center;" data-sort-value="2" | <big>- 2 -&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</big><small>[[#Title|Top]]</small><div class="plainlinks" style="float:right;">[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=List_of_Artifacts/2&action=edit Edit 2]</div>
 
|-
 
|<code><nowiki>{{:List of Artifacts/2}}</nowiki></code>
 
|- id="s_3"
 
!  colspan="3"  style="text-align: center;" data-sort-value="3" | <big>- 3 -&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</big><small>[[#Title|Top]]</small><div class="plainlinks" style="float:right;">[https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=List_of_Artifacts/3&action=edit Edit 3]</div>
 
|-
 
|<code><nowiki>{{:List of Artifacts/3}}</nowiki></code>
 
|}
 
 
 
:etc. Then, you would have each subpage like this:
 
 
 
:'''List of Artifacts/0'''
 
 
 
<pre>| [[0% discount coupon]]  ||  ||  </pre>
 
 
 
:'''List of Artifacts/1'''
 
 
 
<pre>| [[1-calorie meal]]  ||  ||
 
|-
 
| [[1-for-the-price-of-2 voucher]]  ||  || 
 
|-
 
| [[100-lb feather]]  ||  || 
 
|-
 
| [[12th step]]  ||  || 
 
|-
 
| [[19th hole]]  ||  || 
 
|-
 
| [[1x magnifying glass]]  ||  ||  </pre>
 
 
 
:'''List of Artifacts/2'''
 
 
 
<pre>| [[2 pcs (2 pcs)]]  ||  ||
 
|-
 
| [[24k goldfish]]  || B || 
 
|-
 
| [[25-hour clock]]  ||  || 
 
|-
 
| [[2D hologram]]  ||  ||  </pre>
 
 
 
:etc. Each subpage is transcluded into the main page, and would be invisible until you look into the page's wikicode, or hit one of the "Edit ''x''" links on the right.
 
 
 
:Pros:
 
 
 
:* The table remains intact, and attractive
 
:* Any problems/breakages are very easy to isolate and fix
 
:* Each sub-page has a clear and simple structure that you can easily contribute to without any wiki knowledge
 
:* The table doesn't need to have 30-something headers
 
:* The table will still be sortable
 
 
 
:Cons:
 
 
 
:* The sections are ''only'' editable on their subpages, you no longer have the option to edit the entire list together
 
:* The 'edit' button at the top of the ''List of...'' page becomes useless
 
:* The edit history of the list becomes spread across 30-something different pages
 
 
 
: I'm not at all convinced that this is a ''good'' idea. But it's the only other approach I can think of than using headers throughout the lists. I offer it mostly for contrast and comment. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 14:42, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: Take a look at this: [[Wikipedia:List of words having different meanings in American and British English (A–L)]]. This is how the other wiki does long lists. I don’t think transcluding wiki markup for a table is a very bright idea, that can still easily break, and be nearly impossible to find why. Arguably, being split over 30+ pages makes it ''harder'' to find. It also means we have to manage 31+ pages—''per list''.
 
 
 
:: On [https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/List_of_Pokémon bulbapedia] their “List of Pokémon” article is done multiple times instead of being forced to use sorting.
 
 
 
:: Things in-game have no real categorical value aside from: normal (all), italic, bold, activatable (artifacts), strong, boss, beastie, pet, (monsters), [skill type] (skills), [equipment type] (equipment), Epic, mini (quests), and so on. We could have: List of Artifacts, List of Bold Artifacts, ..., List of special monsters by type, List of Skills by name, List of Skills by type, ... etc.
 
 
 
:: Those all make some amount of sense (not that your ideas don’t), and would be useful to the other users. Eg: instead of having to fish through, [[List of Artifacts]] on mobile when a clue says “Bold artifact” you can just go to “List of Bold Artifacts”.
 
 
 
:: I say List of Special Monsters by Type because, special monsters account for a minuscule fraction of monsters. It’s so few our navboxes handle that job. (Hence a combined page)
 
 
 
:: Personally, i don’t think there is a ''correct'' solution for this per se. I believe that a ''mixture of our ideas'' are the solution. That being said, there is a guideline on Wikipedia that says that large articles like [[Wikipedia:America]] should be split up into smaller ones. Our list articles (especially omnibus, though that’s the point of it) are massive.
 
 
 
:: Either way, whatever we do decide to do, we need to keep a very close eye on the List articles so items don’t go missing. — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 16:29, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: I can hardly go with your idea [[User:Djonni|Djonni]], when i have a full inventory of artifact and have a few to update, I don't really want to have to switch from 10 thousand pages! But thanks for sharing an idea for us!
 
::: I still prefer the header idea, like the 1st link on wikipedia that [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] shared. Safer, and it still sortable, we just need to put the first line every time, but that's not an issue IMO.
 
:::On a side note, I don't think it's necessary to create specific lists like "List of Bold Artifact" and co for numerous reasons:
 
:::# More lists/pages means more possibility of not being consistent across the wiki. We're already have sometimes issues with the "Lists of" and the Omnibus not being consistent (or even sometimes the article), no need to add more.
 
:::# More lists/pages means its, IMO, less user-friendly. Let's be honest, not many people are fluent with the wiki and may create mistakes.
 
:::# I don't think it's necessary to have specific lists like "by name", "by tape", when the table is sortable and when you have at the top of the page, links to every letter, and at the bottom left a magnificent {{tlx|top}} template to jump back to it. If you really search something specific, there is nothing a CTRL-F can't do I think.
 
:::Still thanks for the feedback! Let's keep the idea coming! --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 19:00, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::: I happily drop my suggestion then! The header sections are the best approach. I'll get over the fact that I can't sort every bold item in the list  to the top. 😅
 
 
 
:::: It's worth noting, though, that for most users there's no ctrl + f searching for text in a page. Most people just use the in-app browser, which is super limited and along the many things it can't do is search within a page.
 
 
 
:::: Also... maybe it's just me being an old crank, but I strongly resist things that turn the Godwiki into a glorified crossword solver. So, thinking about that... perhaps it's actually '''''great''''' if the big lists are no longer sortable for bold/strong etc 😈 -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 19:20, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{outdent|:::::}}
 
Sorry, was going to respond sooner, but then I found myself in hel—I mean, updating my private wiki.
 
 
 
''Anyway,'' I agree, the Wiki isn’t a crossword solver. Anything we can do to prevent that is welcome in my opinion. I use the “Open in Safari” option when clicking the export/share button to access Safari’s “Find In Page” feature on that export/share menu. The find feature sucks though. It only searches from word boundaries at the start of words eg: searching for “onster” will not match “monster”. No way to change it.
 
 
 
The multi article list thing would work, if it wasn’t for the fact the items on our lists change more than daily. Ie: a gen IV national dex list will ''always'' have the same 493 entries on it. Ours, well... we have hundreds of items, and the exact number keeps growing. Asking someone to edit five plus articles at a time consistently is a pretty tall order.
 
 
 
The reason I suggested that was because searching for bold, activatable, etc. artifacts is annoying on mobile.
 
 
 
My vote goes for the <code>== Headers ==</code> approach. Like on the other wiki.
 
 
 
— [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 23:39, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:Changed the [[List of Artifacts]], feel free to check for errors and possible improvement! --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 10:50, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::Awesome {{u|WardPhoenix}}, absolutely fantastic change to the page. I made a, erm, {{tqi|possible improvement}} or two, emphasis on ''possible''.
 
 
 
::Two minor changes, I've made every section table collapsible, and made the navigation links point to the new headers.
 
 
 
::One fairly significant change: I've added an experimental index down the right-hand side of the page. Now, on desktop it seems to work fine for me. But on my mobile device, the list gets down as far as ''U'' before being cut off. So, we can either scrap it (but I feel it's quite useful?) or perhaps change it to be two columns wide instead, and take up a little more screen real estate. Any thoughts? (If your thoughts are "that's a terrible idea" I won't take it personally at all.) -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 11:24, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::So that we can compare the options, I updated it into a two-column format. The page's [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=List_of_Artifacts&oldid=111837 current version] has two columns, and the [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=List_of_Artifacts&oldid=111832 previous version] has one, you can try both out.
 
 
 
:::On my mobile device's screen, the two column fits better, but obscures just enough of the right hand side of the screen to be a ''little bit'' annoying. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 11:45, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::: Thanks for placing the link to the headers, it's way better! I dunno if the collaspable is useful, but well, if some want it, it's there.
 
:::: As for the Index, I REALLY like that idea, but I think it may need tweaks. First, on my mobile I can't have access of the last row (! and ↑) because it's hidden behind the zoom options (but that may be only me). Secondly, as you pointed out, it's eating on the right side. Maybe we can change the value of the table to have a total of, let's say, 90%, instead of 100% so the tables and the index wouldn't interfere?
 
:::: As for the one or two-column format, for me it's a no brainer. Two column. One column doesn't display entirely on phone. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 15:25, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::::: Okay, assuming we're sticking with the two columns then! :) I narrowed the tables to 95%, which is about right on my device, but obviously that can be tweaked. How is that width for you? -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 16:07, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{outdent|:::::}} Looks fine on my side, that index is defintely one of the greatest idea you had. The index do cut a little on the table, but it doesn't cut any character. If we keep the lateral index, do you think it's necessary to keep the main one (and thus linking the ↑ to the type maybe?)
 
Well, this needs even more feedback. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 17:08, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
: So, the list-article have been updated with the index (not the finger) [[Djonni]] provided and with headers, making it easier to edit. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 14:51, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
== Justifying the new list pages ==
 
 
 
I have some... concerns, I guess, about the new list pages created recently: List of Diary Phrases, List of Earthly News, and List of Greetings. (I'm going to explicitly invite the creator of the new pages, {{u|Uni34}}, to join this conversation (Hi! 👋), and I ''really'' want to start by saying that I don't think {{u|Uni34}} has done anything wrong! She saw a gap in the wiki, she was [[wikipedia:WP:BOLD|'''bold''']], and she created the pages she felt were missing. That's ''good''. 😊 But as per paragraph three of the Be Bold page, sometimes we all end up doing things that need further discussion. 😊)
 
 
 
I refer to the last paragraph of the [[Godwiki Guidebook]], which I think sums it up:
 
 
 
{{tqb|Refrain from making lists of items instead of articles. Having just a list of game objects will only reduce the fun of discovering them in the game. Having an interesting (and not necessarily real or serious) article about the game object will be much better.}}
 
 
 
Now, obviously, we ''do'' have lists of game items that have always formed the backbone of the wiki, and not just the obvious ones. We have, of course, lists of artifacts, monsters, boss monsters, equipment, skills, towns, achievements, quests, and the omnibus list, and there are other lower profile lists in navboxes and hidden all over the place. Each list has its uses to players, obviously some more useful than others. And all except the omnibus do something ''very'' important for the Godwiki &mdash; they are a linked index of the pages that do and don't exist for their respective game items, allowing world-building Godwiki content written by players to be created and found.
 
 
 
My main problem with the three new lists is that, as far as I can see, they achieve neither of the things that justify making a list (be useful to players; be an index for Godwiki content), and they duplicate content from the diary/game that I, for one, would really rather ''not'' have popping up in search results, for exactly the reason above &mdash; it spoils part of the fun of the game. I can't really think of a use for those lists, and nobody's going to be writing Godwiki articles about every Diary entry, piece of Earthly News, or Greeting in the game.
 
 
 
I also think that the Diary and Earthly News lists will be ''extremely'' challenging to meaningfully maintain. We already have major problems with the accuracy of the list of quests, every single little correction submitted by any of the ~15k players would make those lists less and less accurate over time.
 
 
 
But, of course, I might not be seeing a good reason to keep some or all of them. If there ''are'' good reasons to keep them, then we need to explain that reason on each of the lists, because honestly, '''I suspect the Devs will delete the pages when they see them.'''
 
 
 
So, everyone's input is useful here. Are there reasons for keeping any/some/all of the new lists? How are they useful to players? -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 12:05, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
: Agreeing with everything said but one thing. It could be useful for ideaboxer, especially those who try to find their approved idea in the game. But, is it enough to make those lists worth? I don’t know. -- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 12:31, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: The Ideabox is the main reason I created these lists. But it's not the only reason. And the fact that the lists may be spoilers is not sufficient reason to delete them. A lot of content on GodWiki is spoilers. I'm sure there are a lot of users who don't want to see a [[list of quests]], for example. But do we delete it? No, because some people want it. It's the same here. The only difference, I guess, is that quests have articles and diary phrases/greetings/earthly news don't. But come to think of it, most quests don't have articles and I can see the items in the new lists having articles too. --[[User:Uni34|Uni34]] ([[User talk:Uni34|talk]]) 08:49, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{outdent|::}} Well... Looks like the devs passed by and decided otherwise, nothing we can do about it. Though a warning or an explanation for the deletion would have be kind of nice we got neither but only a blunt deletion log, which is an answer in a way i guess. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 14:25, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
== The Monstrous Recapitalisation of 2019 ==
 
 
 
So, the way the game handles capitalisation after a hyphen in a monster name has changed recently. The Ideabox has always automatically capitalised monster ideas, but it didn't historically treat a hyphen as a word break, and it does now... Mostly. A word after a hyphen will be capitalised if it is at least 3 (or maybe it's 4) characters long. This is an attempt to make sure that articles and short prepositions in hyphenated words are not capitalised, according to traditional title caps rules. And, of course, ER editors can manually change capitalisation in cases where that simple rule hasn't quite got something right, as they always could.
 
 
 
At the same time, existing monster names in the game have been recapitalised to match normal English typography. The recapitalisation seems to follow these rough rules:
 
 
 
# Where something after a hyphen was already capitalised, it has stayed that way (the only changes are to previously lowercase letters immediately after a hyphen)
 
# Articles and prepositions after a hyphen remain lowercase, as they would in a title (e.g. [[Monster-in-Law]]), but not entirely consistently (see point 1, e.g. [[Missing-In-Action Figure]])
 
# Word fragments, e.g. [[Arrgh-onaut]], remain uncapitalised, but not entirely consistently (see point 1, e.g. [[Flame-Ingo]])
 
# Otherwise, words after a hyphen have been capitalised pretty consistently.
 
 
 
This post here is essentially to signal that there will be some monster pages that need to be moved to their new capitalisation, and edits being made to [[List of Monsters]] as well as monster articles as required. I'm going to do a lot of this, but even taking advantage of some extra external resources I probably won't catch everything, and there's a chance I might move or correct things to a ''wrong'' capitalisation.
 
 
 
'''If you see a hyphenated monster name in the game,''' and that monster is capitalised differently on the Godwiki, then we need to fix it! It can be a bit of work to make those changes, though, so if you spot something wrong but don't have the opportunity (or perhaps knowledge) to do it yourself, please leave a note about it (right here, or on the monster article's talk page if that's easier) and another editor should get the changes done ''mañana''.
 
 
 
That said... if you ''think'' you don't have the skills you're probably wrong. '''Be Bold''', try to do it yourself, and if someone can see you're struggling or not getting it right they'll clean up after you. No muss, no fuss, no worries. It's really not ''more'' work for an experienced editor to fix a mistake someone else makes, than for that editor to do the work in the first place, so you're never creating more work for someone else!
 
 
 
A brief checklist for myself and others:
 
* If the monster has an article:
 
** The article must be moved to the correct name. (Looking at original article, the "More" menu in the top right has the "Move" action. <span style="font-size:small;">''Is this also true on mobile? Can't recall and can't currently check.''</span>)
 
** Text in article body corrected as needed. {{tlc|Monster}} infobox ''should'' be fine, as it uses the {{tlc|PAGENAME}} [[mediawikiwiki:Help:Magic words|magic word]] by default, but double-check for {{para|title}} parameters or unusual description text.
 
* [[List of Monsters]] to be updated.
 
* Check for a relevant [[:Category:Navigational Boxes|navbox]] and update. (A text search will ''only'' include the main namespace by default, but hitting 'Everything' or 'Advanced' in the results will allow searching of templates.)
 
* If time permits, search for text in pages with the old capitalisation. Put quotes <code>"..."</code> around the name to get the right results. (Two birds with one stone: correcting the capitalisation and an opportunity to increase interlinking if the monster has an article.)
 
* If time permits (lowest priority though, I think), update [[Omnibus List]]. The main users of the Omnibus are crossword solvers, to whom capitalisation is irrelevant.
 
 
 
(Please feel free to add to or alter that checklist if I've missed something.)
 
 
 
Obviously, this is a fairly low priority and on-going project, so it'll take a while and a bit of work to get done together. :) -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 08:44, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
== Call for feedback on new {{tl|Usergod}} template ==
 
{{anchor|Call for feedback on new Usergod template}}{{m|feed}}
 
 
 
Hello all!
 
 
 
This is an official call for anyone interested to test and give feedback on the draft of the new {{tlx|Usergod}} template. If you want to get stuck in straight away, you can leap to the fully documented draft at [[User:Djonni/Template sandbox]].
 
 
 
To begin testing the new template straight away, if you already have the Usergod template on your page you can simply replace <code><nowiki>{{Usergod</nowiki></code> with <code><nowiki>{{User:Djonni/Template sandbox</nowiki></code> to see how it will look with the new template.
 
 
 
In short, the {{tl|Usergod}} and {{tl|Usergoddess}} templates haven't been updated since 2013, and they ''really'' need it. We have modernised and made pretty all of the {{tlc|Monster}}, {{tlc|Artifact}}, {{tlc|Equipment}}, etc. infobox templates, and with the lessons we've learned there, it's time to get to work on the big ones: {{tl|Usergod}}, {{tl|Hero}}, and {{tl|Guild}}. This is the first of those to hit the bench.
 
 
 
In the redesign I have tried to keep to several principles:
 
 
 
* '''Don't mess up existing pages.''' The Usergod template is currently used on [[Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Usergod|203 Godwiki pages]]. Many of those pages have made very specific choices about colours, styles, backgrounds, etc. This is why, by default, the new Usergod template will be transparent: the old template has been transparent for over 8 years, and it should be entirely up to you, the template user, how your Usergod infobox looks. Which leads to:
 
* '''Allow for a large amount of customisation, as simply as possible.''' I have investigated quite deeply (I think) how those existing 203 users of the template have used it, and tried to look at what they wanted but couldn't get from the existing template. The replacement has a large and flexible suite of colouring, styling, and creative options there to use, all of which are completely optional. It can be as elaborate and detailed as you like, or just a quick, simple summary of your most interesting and important features. Whatever you want.
 
* '''Try not to force any decisions onto you, including gender norms.''' Don't want to be called either God ''or'' Goddess? No problem, set {{para|title|The Great and Powerful}}, or <code>=The Divine</code>, or <code>=Furmeister General</code>, or anything you want. Don't want your minion to be called Hero or Heroine? Great, {{para|herolabel|Champion}}, or <code>=Minion</code>, or <code>=Kōhai</code>, or whatever you like. ''If you see a way to make the template more customisable, please say so, and if I can realistically do so, I shall.''
 
* '''Expect the unexpected.''' I have not tried to guess everything you'll want to do with the template. Instead, I've tried to make the template capable of doing anything you might want. There are options to create fully customised sections of the infobox, which you could use to: embed your hero(ine)'s details into it; prominently feature forum roleplaying character sheets; proudly display your pets, ark, achievements, skills, pet peeves, anything. People really ''tried'' to get creative with the old Usergod template, and it just didn't allow them to. So, this one does.
 
 
 
As implied above, updating {{tl|Usergod}} is phase one; after the new Usergod is finalised and put in place, phase two will be {{tl|Hero}}. Depending on the feedback received, my observations of how the new templates are used (or not used), and the level of interest, phase two may also involve designing some additional related templates: {{tlc|Pet}}, {{tlc|Lab boss}}, {{tlc|Ark}}. Then finally, after a ''lot'' of feedback and testing, the {{tl|Guild}} template will be updated. This will be the most difficult and controvertial, as it's the most heavily used template on the Godwiki (at this moment, there are ''exactly'' 500 pages using the Guild template), and for many people, their guild page is the only thing they interact with on Godwiki.
 
 
 
Feedback, discussion, and questions about the new template can be given right here, or at [[User talk:Djonni/Template sandbox]]. You'll also find some discussion and feedback from early testers at [[User talk:Djonni]] and [[User talk:WardPhoenix/Sandbox]] if you're interested.
 
 
 
I'm looking forward to hearing from folks about everything that's wrong with the new Usergod template, so that we can make it better together! -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 08:43, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:'''Update:''' Just a quick note about a couple of additions made recently to the test template, and about feedback I'm getting publicly and privately!
 
 
 
:Firstly, I noticed that some user pages have chosen to [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?search=pronouns&title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=1  specify pronouns,] and some people have been modifying or adapting existing infoboxes to do so. So the Usergod test template now supports a {{para|pronoun}} parameter, which, if specified, will appear below the row where gender appears (if specified). As with all parameters on the new template, it's optional. I've included the parameter in the documentation example, set to the intentionally slightly silly and non-specific {{para|pronouns|Hey/Oi}}. If anyone wants to suggest a more suitable example, please do.
 
 
 
:On a personal note, I'm a bit embarrassed to admit that, as a cis-gendered person who has never in my life needed to specify my pronouns, it took me a long time to realise that for a number of our users that could be important. If anyone can point out other simple things I've missed which may increase the inclusivity and accessibility of the Godwiki/{{tlf|Usergod}}, those things are extremely important to me and I'm always open to listening and acting. I have always tried and will keep trying to put inclusivity and accessibility to the front of all the work I do here.
 
 
 
:Secondly, after feedback and discussion with some testers (thanks everyone!), I've added the Guild pantheons for those who want to show them, in the spirit of "''let people do what they want to with the template''". The docs have been updated to reflect the changes, and they are exactly what you would expect them to be: {{para|unity}}, {{para|popularity}}, {{para|duelery}} and {{para|adventure}}. As with the other pantheon groups, {{para|pantheonsubheaders|<var>yes</var>/<var>no</var>}} will explicitly enable or disable the group subheader.
 
 
 
:Finally, a lot of the feedback (more thanks to everyone!) has pointed out that the template could be a little overwhelming or intimidating for new users. I completely agree. What I'd like to do, just before launching the new template, is restructure the documentation so that there's a ''very simple'' section at the top with only the basic options, and perhaps a couple of suggested colour options, and then additional sections below with the rest. Hopefully it's obvious that the way the documentation is set up now is just for testing, and testers. A complete rewrite of the docs will be, I suspect, the biggest job left before launching the new template. {{m|inprogress}}
 
 
 
:On which last point, I would love to get the template in place before December so that it's out of the way for the run-up to JanuWiki, which is rapidly sneaking up on us! The JanuWiki prep will become my no. 1 Godwiki priority for December! 😄
 
 
 
:Thanks again to everyone who's been testing the new template. Even if you haven't given me any direct feedback, just seeing what people are (and aren't) doing with it, how they're using it, and what they're finding difficult or confusing about it is really helping. So please, keep playing with it, breaking it, and pushing its limits! -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 08:07, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::A few small changes I made today to the test template.
 
 
 
:: While working on other infoboxes recently, I realised that none of them have a full colon <code>:</code> at the end of the labels. Which, y'know, makes sense, and should have been obvious to me. So, to keep in style with the existing infoboxes, I've taken the colons off the labels throughout the infobox.
 
 
 
:: I've also removed the fairly useless linking of the Pantheon names to the Pantheon pages (I doubt anyone's really going to discover a Pantheon they didn't know about from a User page). This is to allow for better colour styling: since link colours cannot be changed, the more links there are, the harder it is to style colours.
 
 
 
:: And so, I've also added two new parameters, {{para|guildlink|<var>no</var>}} And {{para|herolink|<var>no</var>}}. If set, the guild and hero names won't be made into links. This allows people to set any values they like without a link to a dead page, as well as allowing those who want to colour their text to do so.
 
 
 
:: For anyone interested, {{U|Emptysora}} suggested a way to have both coloured text and a link, which you can find at [[User talk:Djonni/Template sandbox#A bit of a hack for the link colors|User talk:Djonni/Template sandbox &sect; A bit of a hack for the link colors]].
 
 
 
::As the end of the month approaches, I'm getting closer to releasing the template into the wild. So please be sure to make any last minute suggestions or complaints ASAP! I'm going to expand the supported length of the custom section for 40 rows to... Well, more rows, but aside from that I'm pretty great to go.
 
 
 
:: My biggest hesitation right now is the width issue on very narrow screens, as reported by {{God|Holy Spirit of Hell}} in the forum. It really bothers me, I'm ''sure'' it's solvable somehow... But it's always the image widths not being dynamic that ends up as the breaking problem. {{Para|upright}} unfortunately doesn't help here. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 11:44, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: Alright, I've been procrastinating on this for too long now. Last chance to voice concerns, otherwise I'm going to go ahead and launch the new template tomorrow or the next day
 
 
 
::: The narrow-screen issue can't be solved without access to site CSS, which is something discussed with and rejected by the Devs many times in the past. Perhaps we'll have a proper Godwiki player admin at some point in the future — until then, we can't fix that, I'm afraid. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 17:08, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::: I have not been shy in experimenting with it and voicing ideas and criticism. Overall it is a very good improvement and I approve. As more people use it, we will get more feedback going forward and can't make improvements until then. I am anxious for you to move on to hero's and guilds. ;) Thank you --[[User:Sand Devil|Sand Devil]] ([[User talk:Sand Devil|talk]]) 18:08, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::::: Well, the new template is now live, with reworked documentation to try to give a beginner an easy start.
 
 
 
::::: Not just yet, but soon I will be using the [[User:Djonni/Template sandbox]] page for the next project. If you've tested the template, firstly, thank you very much. Many of you gave me really helpful suggestions, feedback, advice, requests, criticism, and reports of unexpected behaviour. Even if you didn't actively give me feedback, by watching what people were doing with the template I learned a lot about what it ''should'' be doing.
 
 
 
::::: Please point all your {{tl|User:Djonni/Template sandbox}}es to now use {{tl|Usergod}}. In a few days I'll leave talk messages for anyone who's still using the old sandbox page. Thanks again everyone, and hopefully the general Godwiki populace likes the change to the new template. It can still be undone if necessary, of course. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 20:15, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
== Articles about content that's no longer in the game ==
 
 
 
So, we've started finding more and more articles that are about content (artifacts, monsters, equipment, quests, skills, pantheons...) that is no longer in the game for various reasons. I think it's time we worked out what we do with these things.
 
 
 
Firstly, I think that deleting a contributor's creativity and work on the Godwiki because the item's gone is a shame. My vote is that articles are preserved, with a hatnote, and possibly categorised (perhaps <code>Category:Articles about things that are no longer in the game</code>).
 
 
 
However, I would equally argue that deleted items should be removed from the relevent 'List of...', and the Omnibus. If they aren't in the game any more, then they shouldn't really be there, I think.
 
 
 
A hatnote could look something like this:
 
 
 
{|style="clear: both; width: 100%; border-color:{{{outerbordercolor|#AAB}}} {{{outerbordercolor|#AAB}}} {{{outerbordercolor|#AAB}}} {{{bordercolor|#999}}}; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 10px; padding: 4px; margin: 1px auto {{{interval|0.2rem}}} auto; vertical-align: middle; background-color: {{{bgcolor|#fefefe}}}; text-align: left;{{{style|}}}"
 
|width="1%" height="{{{height|auto}}}" style="padding-right:8px; vertical-align: {{{image-align|middle}}}" | <span style="font-size: 300%;">👻<span>
 
|style="vertical-align: middle"|<p style="color: #000000; background: none; overflow: hidden; page-break-after: avoid; font-size: 1.17em; font-weight: bold; line-height: 1.6; margin-top: 0.1em; margin-bottom: 0; padding-top: 0; padding-bottom: 0;">This article is about something which is no longer in the game</p>This subject of this article was once a part of Godville, but is no longer. It is kept here for its historical or creative value. Please do not delete this note or the article's content without discussing it on the {{fake link|talk page}} first, however, creative contributions and additional accurate details are still welcome.
 
|}
 
 
 
No styles applied to that example, of course, we can decide on that if we like the general idea. Whaddaya think? -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 12:57, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
: I definitely like that. I feel bad about going through and effectively playing god with “what gets to stay, and what gets deleted.” I mean, it’s one thing if the creator of something blanks a page (which is somehow systematically done), but, if it’s just left there, I don’t want to just get rid of it. A lot of guilds put a lot of effort into their pages. It’s a shame to permanently delete them. — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 13:20, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: For guilds in particular we need to tweak the message. After all, a guild with the same name that used to exist but now doesn’t, could come into existence again. We shouldn’t bar them from editing their own guild page because someone else had a guild with the same name.
 
 
 
:: Things removed from the game should unquestionably be removed from lists whose sole purpose is detailing things existing in the game. It’s just clutter at that point. However, I think we should add another list page “List of content removed from the game” with headers for Monsters, Equipment, Pantheons, etc.. At least that way, ''something'' links to those articles and they won’t just be dead. We could actually use THAT talk page to discuss whether to move items there. — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 13:27, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: Well, just to clarify, we already have guilds covered with {{tlx|Delete guild}}. Inactive deities and their {{heroes and heroines}} can remain here until the day they return to the game or the sun explodes, whichever comes first.<sup>1</sup> I'm not talking about user (god, hero, guild) pages here, I'm talking about objects or mechanics from the game that have been removed.
 
 
 
::: Note <sup>1</sup>: There is one important exception to this. If a god no longer ''exists'' in Godville at all, they have requested that their account and all of its data be deleted under GDRP. If we stumble upon a User page with no corresponding User, an ''Ideabox -> Other'' should be submitted to alert the Devs, and they can decide what should be done for GDRP compliance. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 14:06, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{outdent|:::}} I suggest {{tlx|Outdated}} as a name for the template. Should we use the {{tlx|Sign}} template as a base or do we start from the hatnote [[Djonni]] made just above? --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 16:45, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 
: Oh well, I managed to allow {{tlx|Sign}} to use emoji instead of a picture when we want it.... So that new template will probably end up as another Sign child I guess 😅 -- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 23:47, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
 
:: {{tlx|Historical}}, changed my mind about the name 😅 --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 13:57, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
== Subpages for main namespace ==
 
 
 
According to [[Mediawikiwiki:Help:Subpages|MW:Help:Subpages]], subpages are disabled for the main namespace. Should I submit a Feedback => Other asking for them to add the Main namespace to $wgNamespacesWithSubpages?
 
 
 
If we are going to suggest that guilds use subpages instead of not subpages, shouldn’t they be enabled...? I only noticed this now as I was dealing with HM’s main namespace pages and didn’t see the breadcrumb links. — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 21:43, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
: That seems like a good thing to submit, though it may not be accepted. Since there are already subpages being used in practice in Main, the primary advantages would be:
 
 
 
:* Better breadcrumb navigation (or, breadcrumb navigation in Main at all)
 
:* Correct subpage moves if required
 
 
 
:The only subpages I know of in Main are Guild (off the top of my head, ref. the [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?search=Harvest%20Moon&title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=1 HM subpages,] [[Russia/statistics]], [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?search=The%20Forsakens%20Lament&title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=1 TFL subpages]) and some user pages in the main namespace (including my own [[Djonni/Shared sandbox]]... We'll see if the Devs feel it's worth enabling for those cases. With the changes to user templates that are being discussed and worked on, subpages with infobox templates may become more common for guilds. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 13:27, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: Submitted~! — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 15:52, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
 
 
== Hero namespace ==
 
 
 
I noticed that this wiki has a Hero namespace. Why doesn't anyone use it, and is it okay to move hero pages to it? --[[User:Uni34|Uni34]] ([[User talk:Uni34|talk]]) 08:23, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
 
:P.S. What would be the implications of using the Hero namespace? Are subpages allowed, for example? Is the editting and creation of hero pages limited to the hero's god, similar to god pages? --[[User:Uni34|Uni34]] ([[User talk:Uni34|talk]]) 08:28, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: Well, {{tqi|is it okay to move hero pages to it?}} is a hard no. Absolutely don't mess with other people's God, Hero, or Guild pages without permission, except for the simplest of maintenance (e.g., adding <code>[<nowiki />[Category:Guilds]]</code> to new guild pages; the occasional courtesy fix to inactive players' pages if we change the parameters of a template they use, but even that's a bit iffy). So, no moving hero pages. We use Talk pages to give friendly, helpful advice as needed, and no more.
 
 
 
:: As for the Hero namespace, well. As you can [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=Special%3APrefixIndex&prefix=&namespace=100 see,] it has literally ''never'' been used. There's no need for it whatsoever. The reason we have it is, like so many of the Godwiki's weird stuff, because of the idiosyncrasy of the Godwiki's first admin, who is now inactive. But for the first half decade or so of the Godwiki, it was run by someone who was very unfriendly and unhelpful, made a bunch of weird decisions (redirecting blanked and unneeded pages to the Main Page? Yep, that was his rule), made the Godwiki a difficult and unpleasant place to be, and made the majority of our community's best people feel ''really'' negative about the Godwiki. It'll still be years before we finish undoing the weirdness, and the harm.
 
 
 
:: As far as I know, nobody has any permission to create or edit in the Hero namespace. Try going to [[Hero:Dora34]] or [[Hero:Uni34]] and see, I know I can't create [[Hero:Djonniboy]] or [[Hero:Djonni]]. It's just one more annoying quirk we've inherited from bygone days. I suspect that the idea was that one could create and edit the page for one's own hero, but when he realised that was not technically possible (since the Godwiki has no means whatsoever of getting metadata from Godville beyond your login token), he just abandoned the category instead of cleaning up afterhimself and removing it. So, we just have to carry on like it's not there. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 08:56, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
== File namespace pass (pass to mark images for deletion) ==
 
Shortly, I will be going through the file namespace (specifically the items listed on [[Special:UnusedFiles]]) and mass marking files for deletion.
 
 
 
According to [[Rules]]:
 
{{tqb|4. GodWiki is not an image-hosting platform, and images should never be uploaded "in case they're useful" or "to be used at some point" but only for immediate use in an article. Images which are not used in articles may be deleted without notice.|source=[[Rules]]}}
 
 
 
I interpret this to mean that anything in the [[Special:UnusedFiles]] report can be safely marked for deletion under the {{tqi|Images which are not used in articles may be deleted without notice.|q=yes}} sentence. However, the keyword there is '''''may'''''. That means that images won't necessarily be deleted just for not being on a page. I've been trying to think of scenarios where images would be kept vs deleted (since ''some'' of the images in [[Special:UnusedFiles]] might be worth keeping).
 
 
 
So far, I've come up with these scenarios:
 
* Images with watermarks (eg: [[:File:Greyscale.jpg]])
 
* Images not related to the game at all (excluding images of heroes/gods) (perhaps: [[:File:104866108.jpg]])
 
* Images related to the game but do not have an article created (eg: [[:File:Feralpetrock.jpg]])
 
* Images related to the game but not included on any page (eg: [[:File:Undead garden gnome.jpg]])
 
* Images of diary entries and other in-games screens (which otherwise have no purpose since the diary and diaryquest templates exist, eg: [[:File:Dust Kitty.png]])
 
* Images of formulas that are not listed on any page (eg: [[:File:Fo3.gif]])
 
** If necessary, I can go through and try to determine what these formulas are (eg: the linked one above is probably a formula to estimate temple completion)
 
* Images with no discernible purpose or description (eg: [[:File:Founder.jpg]])
 
* Images that appear to be duplicates of other images (eg: [[:File:Beer-bottle-tree.jpg]] and [[:File:Beer-bottle-tree1.jpg]])
 
** If they're perfectly identical, I can just mark one of them for deletion
 
** If they're different sizes, I can mark the smaller one for deletion
 
 
 
Unfortunately, I can't detect if an image ''used'' to be on any pages by nature of MediaWiki. (I was thinking about exporting the diffs of each page and searching them for <code><nowiki>[[Image:xxx]]]</nowiki></code> or <code><nowiki>[[File:xxx]]</nowiki></code>. But I don't want to do that because that would put a lot of strain on the database/website [probably], and I don't want to be responsible for if anything happens.)
 
 
 
I'll be considering the nature of the images (as listed in the scenarios above), as well as the age of the image, who uploaded it (mainly to see if {{u|Spode}} or a few others uploaded it. {{u|Spode}} created a bunch of templates and other things that have since been marked for deletion (Usually Spode was the one to mark his templates as such))
 
 
 
Worst case, you'll be able to see which ones I have marked for deletion in [[:Category:Marked for deletion]] and on my dummy page ([[User talk:Emptysora/dummy]]) when I add them there (which will be as I go along, but I'll save after every couple hundred or so). If you feel a file shouldn't be on there, feel free to discuss it here or on the file's talk page.
 
 
 
The main reason I have been going through the [[Special:UnusedTemplates]], [[Special:UnusedFiles]], and [[Special:UnusedCategories]] special pages is so that we can actually use those reports as intended. Ie: I'm adding everything that has been marked for deletion to my dummy page such that they're removed from those reports. The page is in ''User talk'' because the ''User'' namespace is semi-protected (but ''User talk'' isn't). IE: If I go off for a month and things are unnominated or the devs actually clear the category out, you'll be able to modify the page to remove the deleted pages from the Special:Wanted reports.
 
 
 
Before I start "pruning" (mass-marking these images for deletion), I wanted to hear some opinions about this. To be safe, if there's anything I'm not sure about, I'll post a reply to this thread asking for more opinions on a case-by-case basis. To start out, I've listed the example images from above. -- [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 21:08, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
: I don't think there is something wrong about marking any unused pictures with "To delete". That whats the Recommandation #4 say that happens to those pictures anyway, we can still upload new pictures when needed....  The problem remains the same, we can't delete them ourselves. I don't know if that's something easy to do/useful from dev POV though. -- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 22:41, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: What I was thinking about is if we could perhaps every so often submit an "Other" report to the devs via feedback and ask them to clear out [[:Category:Marked for deletion]]. (Eg: maybe once a year). From a dev perspective, I don't think there's an easy way to batch the deletion. At least not without installing extensions such as [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:DeleteBatch DeleteBatch] or [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Nuke Nuke]. The only thing I can think of is if we made a template that would link to the confirmed delete action and create a page where all they had to do was to click links to delete the pages. That poses an issue of, say, if a malicious actor modified the page before the admins get to it (not that our special category doesn't have that risk either). Aside from that, the devs would have to go into each page, drop down the "More" menu, and click the "Delete" option that's listed for them.
 
 
 
:: I just think that just because we ''can't'' delete pages doesn't mean we ''shouldn't be looking to'' (hence why I'm doing this). -- [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 23:03, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: Passed through the list and whittled it down to 317 (when it used to be at 1200~). Gonna apologize now since that action probably will make people's lives miserable when they check [[Special:RecentChanges]]. Tip: Set "namespace" to "File" and check the "Invert selection" box (which might not work on mobile) to hide my recent File edits (which is over 800). I'll do some more tomorrow. -- [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 02:10, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::: Nobody's been willing to go through this so thoroughly in ''ever'', {{u|Emptysora}}, so 👏👏👏 well done! I have a small suggestion as to how to best use all this work of yours. I think it's worth trying to turn this into a genuine cleanup, and make it as easy as possible for the Devs to do that big batch delete. I've always had a concern that there's quite a lot of material in those old pictures that is copyrighted or lacks suitable licensing, and shouldn't be here.
 
 
 
:::: We could, if we want to be generous, post a message on the forum about this and give fokls a grace period to come and rescue anything they wanted kept. I also think it's wise to exclude anything which is a screenshot of the game, as there are lots of genuine reasons why someone may have one of those uploaded without being in use on a page (and, since they're material from the game, they pose no threat of copyright or licencing violations at all). But, assuming those two things are done, I think that it's worth you submitting an Ideabox->Other to the Devs asking them to do a batch delete (with links to those extensions, as they might find that useful).
 
 
 
:::: To make it as easy as possible for that deletion to go ahead, I can modify {{tl|delete}} so that it checks if it's on an image page (i.e., in the <code>File:</code> namespace), and adds those images to a new <nowiki>[[Category:Files marked for deletion]]</nowiki>, which will make not just this batch deletion easier, but future image cleanups as well. We will then in future simply be able to drop a {{tlf|delete}} onto images as needed, and once there's enough to make it worth the trouble, pop a fresh request through to the Devs.
 
 
 
:::: I suspect they will actually be glad for the opportunity to clear all that old junk out, especially if we point out that there's copyrighted and unlicensed material sprinkled through it. For most of the Godwiki's history, image licensing issues have never been adequately emphasised, but I really think it needs to be something we're much more assiduous about, and this big image cleanup will really help with that. 👏 again! -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 11:02, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{outdent|:::::}}
 
The only screenshots of the game I propose to mark for deletion unquestionably is things like screenshots of the diary, pantheon rankings, and hero stats screens. The rules state this isn’t a hosting website, and generally, those kinds of images are mostly uploaded to share “hey, this happened” or “I’m number one on the Destruction pantheon” or “I’m rich.” So, those ones should be almost certainly deleted. Things like inventory screens etc. I can see keeping. There was one I caught after the fact but forgot to remove the template that showed some holiday exclusive items. There’s also what appears to be dungeon maps and strategies/guides (I assume that’s what that is, I’m 92 bricks until I can see that mechanic.)
 
 
 
I also agree that a warning (especially if this is a regular thing from now on) on the forums is important. I forgot to suggest that in my OP (despite alluding to it). If people on the site have a desire to keep their images, they’ll check. It allows us to prune the inactive images and old content. If you do put a message on the forums, you should specify that they should add their images to their user page or something so they aren’t marked for deletion. If they want to hide it there, you can tell them the 1x1 trick we thought of on your page.
 
 
 
I hope the moderators don’t have to go through a lot of trouble to batch it.
 
 
 
Eventually, I’ll be going through the entire File list for inappropriate images, copyrighted content, etc. and marking those accordingly. That’s... another day though.
 
 
 
Personally, and as heartless as this is, nobody has the right to complain if their image is removed since GV doesn’t ever guarantee it’ll stay, has provisions for removing images, and states it’s not a hosting platform. They can, however, get mad at ''us'' for marking it to be deleted (Especially me since I just went through and added 800 to the category).
 
 
 
Well, I guess I’ll call this '''''{{tqi|Project Cleanup 2019}}''''' I guess, if this is going to become a full cleanup operation. I’m only one person, so, I could use all the help I can get anyway. Honestly, I had planned to do a cleanup of all three for this reason. No offense to anyone, but there’s a lot of old “junk” left around. It bugs me when I see stuff like that (especially with the unused reports), so... you know (;一_一)
 
 
 
Lastly, the image licensing we definitely need to pay attention to. I hate copyright law enough to know that some people and companies CAN and WILL take action against people for this stuff '''**cough cough** RIAA/MPAA **cough cough**''' (though those two are music and video, and our at risk files are mostly anime images)
 
 
 
Glad to help with all of this, though. — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 11:41, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:I'm going to gently but '''''quite firmly''''' argue again that material that's clearly ''directly'' related to Godville &mdash; screenshots, etc &mdash; has an implicit but clear reason to be here, regardless of whether it appears on [[Special:UnusedFiles]]. There are plenty of places around the wiki ([[Hall of records]] spring to mind) where a large number of players with zero experience (or interest) in wikis and how they work have simply made trial-and-error guesses about how to do stuff, and come up with some ''creative'' solutions that will mean files that are, in fact, in use will ''erroneously'' appear on that report. And that's not even to mention when people upload an image to the Godwiki to be linked from the forums, or in a private message, or in the discord(s), which does happen, and which is, in my opinion, a totally reasonable thing for a player to do. Because, in fact, why ''shouldn't'' people use the Godwiki as a place to put {{tqi|those kinds of images... uploaded to share “hey, this happened” or “I’m number one on the Destruction pantheon” or “I’m rich”}}? Proudly displaying your achievements as a God or a Guild is one of the Godwiki's most-used purposes.
 
 
 
:Granted that the Godwiki isn't an {{tqi|image-hosting platform}}<sup>1</sup>, but if you're a Godville player, you have a totally reasonable expectation that it's a place you could safely put game-related material, regardless of whether you have '''1)''' ever seen those guidelines or even realise that they exist (most don't), and '''2)''' have the slightest idea how wikis work. And both of those are things we can continue to expect from the majority of occasional Godwiki contributors forever, as there's really nothing we could (or should) do about it if we want people to feel like they can use the Godwiki freely.
 
 
 
:There's a reason why [[Special:UnusedFiles]] is separate to the marked-for-deletion categories. Any mediawiki installation would have use cases for images to be present that should not be deleted, and this is definitely one of them for us. Regardless of whether we ''like'' having things on that report, it is, nonetheless, ''simply'' a report, and doesn't always require action to be taken to [[wikipedia:WP:BROKE|"fix"]] it. 😊
 
 
 
:Of course, I realise that this might mean that someone has to go through every file that's been marked for deletion and un-mark anything that is clearly game related, and I don't mind doing that work in the next while. 😊
 
 
 
:Footnote <sup>1</sup>: That wording actually comes from the ''bad old days'', and in my opinion, we should actually rethink it with the above in mind. Because all mediawikis ''are'' an image-hosting platform, if they have any images at all. The wording is sarcastic, and was put there just to be a stick to hit people with (''ref'': {{tl|Warning}}) if they uploaded something that a certain someone didn't like. The rule is sound in principle, but should reflect a more reasonable, friendlier tone. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 12:09, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: I’ll go through it later, don’t worry.
 
 
 
:: My only comment is that I don’t think that just because it’s a screenshot of the game or directly related to the game, that we unconditionally keep the image on the site. All the rules state is that it’s not a hosting platform, things should be for immediate use, and content unrelated can be deleted without warning. Ie: it doesn’t say “Anything related to the game will always stay” (as silly or implicit such a rule would be)
 
 
 
:: What I’ll do is go through and individually find the applicable images and evaluate based on your comments so far, if they would have a use or would be necessary to keep. I’ll even search the forums (assuming I can actually search for links like that and automate it) and see if any are linked, automatically removing the template etc.. I’ll post here if I have questions.
 
 
 
:: I know why Unused is not called pending delete or similar. I never treated it as such (or else there’d be nothing left in that report). In such cases, we could still add them to a page like my dummy page so they don’t show up in the report.
 
 
 
:: The problem is that while some of the images MAY be in use despite being on that report, there’s no way for us to tell. We can’t just not delete any files because they ''could'' be used elsewhere. Things directly related to GV I understand. But, with other images, there’s just no way to tell. This is why I think a forum post is a good idea. At least then we gave people a chance to see if their image is pending deletion and potentially remove it.
 
 
 
:: Regardless, I think the rules are a bit too vague in this situation. They’re too broadly written. It allows people to interpret them too extremely. I kind of wish we had an admin’s opinion on this. That would certainly clarify some of this. — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 14:57, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: Sorry if I’m coming off harsh... I’m half asleep and really need to sleep. I **will** go through them later and put the applicable files into a temporary purgatory of sorts.
 
 
 
::: Honestly, I’m playing devil’s advocate for the most part (just offering a counterargument). at least this discussion will allow us to not have to fuss about it as much. There’s just too many hidden variables with this.
 
 
 
::: From what I read, you feel that if it’s game related, it almost certainly stays (nearly regardless of the image itself), and that some images shouldn’t be deleted just because they aren’t used (that one... is hard to deal with).
 
 
 
::: Our main issue is the fact that we have nearly zero categorized images, we don’t know what any of them are for. We should start categorizing images based on where they’re located (into the appropriate existing categories)
 
 
 
::: in the very least, once we deal with the unused file report, in the future, we’ll be able to see which files were uploaded to be used on the wiki. This allows us to pretty easily determine what to do with most of the files. The uncategorized files we can, for the most part, assume are used elsewhere off the site (Eg: forums). This can allow us to make a better decision on what to do with those.
 
 
 
::: Ideally, the only thing I’d like in that report, is files that are new, or are not on the site for use on the wiki. (Or images that have since been removed with categories)
 
 
 
::: We just need to clean up the mess from “the ''bad old days''” as you put it.
 
 
 
::: As for rule changes. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with allowing game-related images to be hosted. We should probably word it, “GodWiki is not an image hosting website. Images unrelated to the game, it’s contents, gods, and guilds can be removed without warning. In the event you do not think your image will be in use soon, please put a description with the image when you upload it so others that come after you know what you intended. Any content that breaks TOS can be removed without warning.” (Ie: be specific about what is considered unrelated content, and put a note to uploaders letting them know to describe what they’re uploading if it’s not going to be immediately used.)
 
 
 
::: For this first purge, I think the unused guild, god, and content images (Eg: monsters, artifacts) be included too (excluding other content related to the game like screenshots.) we then do a forum post so that people can pull what they want out (Eg: grace period of a month). After this, ideally, we categorize uploads so we know WHAT is on the report (since half the time it isn’t clear.) — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 15:25, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{outdent|::::}} Heh, don't worry about it. It happens to <s>the best of us</s> me all the time, I often reread stuff I wrote when tired and wonder why anyone still talks to me, or how they could have possibly understood what I'd hoped to say. 😐
 
 
 
And in which spirit, I want to be more clear about what I mean, as I'm not sure we have ended up on the same page. I'm really talking ''very specifically'' about screenshots of the game, or of game material which was generated ''by Godville itself'' in some way. And there is a more general way to talk about this which might draw a clearer picture.
 
 
 
To me, it comes down to this: ''why'' do we wish to clear out old images? What's our purpose? It can't '' just'' be to clear the special report pages, or keep things "tidy". In fact, there's ''very little reason why'' one should want to do this, other than general fastidious (which I am in general down with, but not in this case).
 
 
 
The most legitimate purpose for clearing out old images is to prevent potential future problems to do with licensing and copyright. Because in the end, at some point, someone had a reason to put every single one of those images up in the Godwiki, and it's not possible for us to know what they were, nor if the pictures are still important to someone. So to remove any image we need to justify the choice. And honestly, the only justification I think is reasonable is a precautionary one against legal threats to Godville.
 
 
 
Material generated by the game or by the game's players doesn't pose that threat. There is, I argue, simply no ''justification'' for removing it.
 
 
 
Organise it? Absolutely! Find a way to better use it? No question! Find a way to take them off the reports, so those reports become useful again? Great idea! Delete someone else's contribution or achievement just... because we decided to? Nah.
 
 
 
What I'm trying to say is that simply not being displayed with <code>[<nowiki />[File:...]]]</code> (the report's metric for "in use") isn't a ''reason'' to delete a file. But it's absolutely a reason to take a look and figure out whether it's safe to keep. And if it's not safe, it should go. If it poses no risk at all, which includes any screenshots or game-created content, we don't have a reason to remove something that someone choose to put here. 😊 That's all I'm trying to say. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 18:29, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
: It's basically a case by case issue. I know I uploaded a screenshot that could be deleted because it have no use now (need to find it back to mark it). I don't think there is any good middle ground since deleting is kinda permanent. And copyright haven't been a major issue here so far thanks whatever (Gosh if would be drama if all copyrighted images were deleted).
 
: There's also a lot of duplicate (guilty as charged for one...) that could be deleted without much thoughts. I'd tend to say that unused screenshot intended for the hall of records could be deleted, but well I can understand the objection of Djonni.
 
: But, I'd object that objection by saying that most of the people who posted those unused screenshot are unlikely watching at them or at the Godwiki on a regular basis (far fetched argument I know).
 
: But I also understand there is no emergency at deleting pictures, unless the devs says otherwise (when i need a pic, i try to search if there is something down there i can use instead of upload, like i did for {{tlx|Geography}}), it would just make it cleaner.
 
: Categorizing the pictures can be useful I guess, but that's gonna be quite the monumental task. (And I guess we need to define those category firsthand). -- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 23:26, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: {{u|Djonni}} I ask myself that question everyday... heh. I see what you mean. I’ll definitely add the categorization to my list of things to. I like monumental tasks. For the most part, we can use [[:Category:Gods]], [[:Category:Guilds]] and so on for nearly everything. There’s no real reason to create new categories explicitly for images.
 
 
 
:: My reason for deleting files was never to clear out the [[Special:UnusedFiles]] report. That was simply the first place I looked through as those images were not in use (Ie: people wouldn’t care ''as much'' if those were gone through)
 
 
 
:: I understood what you meant by the game generated content. Yes, those generally would not cause us legal issues, but, there’s other reasons to delete things than just because of legal issues. As {{u|WardPhoenix}} pointed out, there’s duplicate file issues too. Aside from that, there’s also the potential storage space issue. I’m not sure how the devs are handling that one though, and since they haven’t said anything, it’s likely not a problem yet. We should ask them for their opinion on this at some point, though.
 
 
 
:: The general assumption I had when I was going through that report was that “since they were unused, the uploaders either don’t need, or want the images anymore.” (That obviously doesn’t work in the case of forum messages.) If somebody worked hard and contributed by uploading a file, you would at least assume they would want to show that file off. The fact that such images appear on that report defies that very idea. In many cases, people have uploaded replacements to be used instead of their original uploads (such as hero/god avatars, guild banners, especially HM, and some bird one I can’t remember the name of.). I kind of want to hear a scenario where this logic would not hold true for the unused file report (at least for the older images, and ones not of game content itself). I’m not suggesting people don’t care about their achievements, but that, in many cases, that doesn’t apply.
 
 
 
:: As {{u|WardPhoenix}} said, there’s no rush to delete the images (and I was thinking at least a couple month grace period for the forum post since not everyone comes on everyday like we seem to).
 
 
 
:: Sorry for the “late” reply, I’ve been dealing with some legal things these past few weeks (I alluded to it on my user page Monday). I’ve been a bit busy.
 
 
 
:: Ugh, this topic is getting long. REALLY long. For some reason the TOC doesn’t show up on the mobile skin, so scrolling to the “edit” link for this section, is a big hassle. <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Emptysora|contribs]])  Thursday November 21</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
 
 
 
::: Hey, no problems, real life always comes first here. Everyone's among friends here, you take any time you need. As one of my old mentors here once patiently told me, the Godwiki will always be here. 😊 We all hope you're okay, and if you need anything, we're here.
 
 
 
::: {{tqi|As {{u|WardPhoenix}} pointed out, there’s duplicate file issues too}}: Yes, absolutely, there's some common sense actions that can safely be taken to clear out dupes, etc. 👍
 
 
 
::: {{tqi|there’s also the potential storage space issue}}: This doesn't concern me at all, for a few reasons. Firstly, it's not our concern. 🤷‍♂️ If the space used by the Mediawiki installation had ever been a concern for the Devs, they could have popped in at any time in the last eight years and nuked every unused file. They haven't. Not on Godwiki-en, nor on Godwiki-ru, which is ''much'' busier and larger than ours. Secondly, a careful inspection of the [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=Special:Log/delete&dir=prev&offset=20130914040147&limit=500&type=delete&user= Godwiki deletion logs] reveals that, even at times where deleting offensive images was necessary (and it's worth noting that that's the ''only'' reason an image has ''ever'' been deleted), they were very selective in deleting only the historical revision of the <code>[[File:</code> that was offensive, and leaving behind the pointless placeholder that was uploaded to obscure the offensive file. They have clearly demonstrated that they strongly prefer for ''all user content to be kept'', even the pointless stuff, unless there's a clear and compelling reason to remove it. Y'see? We don't need to ask the Devs opinion on this stuff, we've got it demonstrated if we just look.
 
 
 
::: {{tqi|you would at least assume they would want to show that file off. The fact that such images appear on that report defies that very idea}}: Well, I think I've expressed my disagreement with this enough. 😊 The key word there really is "assume" — we simply shouldn't be assuming what those users wanted, or want, with the file. And we shouldn't assume that a correctly formatted <code>[[File:</code> is the only way the images have been used.
 
 
 
::: {{tqi|such as hero/god avatars, guild banners, especially HM, and...}}: I don't believe we ever really disagreed on that. 👍 Unless for some weird reason a guild used a screenshot for their emblem, which 🤷‍♂️ sure, if they did, I'd be arguing for it's preservation.
 
 
 
::: On the matter of guilds, though, it's not difficult to imagine a scenario where someone would be angry about this. Take: the newly elected guild leader, keen to revitalise the guild's symbols and wiki page for recruitment, goes looking for all the old emblems and banners for some retro inspiration, or to cherry pick the best to reuse. For the last eight years, there's been no problem doing that. We are about to change the ''de facto'' rules, to bring them more in line with the ''de jure'', in a way that could, and one day certainly will, disrupt and frustrate people. It really is something we need to remember. Indifference to user experience has damages the Godwiki's reputation again and again, year after year, and we really mustn't repeat those mistakes
 
 
 
::: Btw, I'm not arguing that we keep all the old guild rubbish files. Just highlighting that the expectations of our fellow users need to be kept in mind at all times. Fair warning on the forums will suffice, for cases like that suggested above. Before we take this to the forums, though, we really need to develop a very clear and ''easy'' way people can rescue any files they want kept.
 
 
 
::: Okay, okay, I'm procrastinating because I'm having a bad day. Must. Get. Back. To. Work. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 12:04, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
 
===Let's place a header here because duck scrolling===
 
{{outdent|::::}} I... forgot to sign my comment... oops.
 
 
 
Thanks for kind of understanding what I meant when I asked for a scenario. I wasn’t being combative at all (even though it probably looks like that), I just figured, if there WAS a reason, I just want to know, since I can’t think of such a reason. You make a good point about going through for past inspiration. Basically, I just wanted a counterargument to what I argued.
 
 
 
I think we should change our perspective on this. We’re currently taking a '''“delete first, ask users to save their stuff later”''' kind of thing. Let’s flip it. Instead of that, let’s '''“Save first, and ask people and guilds to go through their uploads to see what they don’t need/want anymore.”''' You’ve already shown that there’s far more scenarios where ''keeping the files is the de facto norm.'' Instead of trying to arbitrarily decide who gets to keep their stuff and who doesn’t, I feel we should instead categorize everything, and ask people to look into their uploads for stuff they don’t want to. The only things we will auto-flag for removal are: 1) copyrighted content (which would likely, and, unfortunately include memes), 2) inappropriate content, 3) and duplicate content (putting a ''redirect'' on the dup’s page to the kept file). User content isn’t a problem in most cases, I’ve noticed that most of the outdated user content is handmade, not from copyrighted material anyway. There’s no pressing reason for us to push this. Space isn’t an issue. Most of the content doesn’t violate copyright, and generally poses no issue. And, as a result, simply ''asking'' for people to go through their uploads, will get the so called “file purge” I have been devising, while not upsetting anyone (hopefully).
 
 
 
For guilds in particular, I think we should suggest that final authority on whether things like banners be removed be delegated to the original uploader/guild master/majority of the guild (Ie: that they use the guild council and forums to debate whether they need to keep their content on here.)
 
 
 
I’d say that we should stress that ''most'' of the content is perfectly fine and can stay, but, that, we’re trying to do ''something'' about the vast number of unused files, whether that be just to hear, “yeah, it’s not in use, but we’d like to keep it” or “Oh, that? You can get rid of it.” We all like this game, and most of us definitely want to see this wiki improve (I for one want to live to see the [[Special:WantedPages]] show a single digit red link count), so, if we simply organize this as a sort of “spring cleaning” I have no doubt that the interested parties will at least ''look'' through their stuff.
 
 
 
I’m going to start going through and categorizing all of the files into their appropriate categories. Files that can be categorized and don’t fit into the above listed auto-flag scenarios will be removed from [[:Category:Marked for deletion]].
 
 
 
After this is all done, we should write some form of guideline article for uploading files (reminding people to put descriptions, categorize, avoid uploading duplicates, etc.). We could even create templates to be used in the file namespace explicitly, such as a <code><nowiki>{{Quality}}</nowiki></code> template which could say, “The quality of this image does not fit the guidelines for images on this wiki. Reason: (((reason))). If you can provide a better image, please replace this file.” Or similar, (reasons can be, “Image has watermark” “resolution too poor” or similar).
 
 
 
Your thoughts? — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 19:55, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
: Created a working demo of the "FileUse" template. It's in my [[User:Emptysora/sandbox|sandbox]]. example:
 
 
 
: <code><nowiki>{{User:Emptysora/sandbox|no-category=yes|type=hero|god=Emptysora|hero=Sora Amasaki|hero-link=User:Emptysora/Sora Amasaki|hero-gender=female}}</nowiki></code>
 
 
 
: Produces:
 
{{User:Emptysora/sandbox|no-category=yes|type=hero|god=Emptysora|hero=Sora Amasaki|hero-link=User:Emptysora/Sora Amasaki|hero-gender=female}}
 
 
 
: The template uses the <code><nowiki>{{gender:[username]|ifmale|iffemale|ifneutral}}</nowiki></code> magic word to automatically detect the gender preference from the user's settings to decide whether to call the user "god" "goddess" or "almighty" (gender neutral). This setting is found on [[Special:Preferences]] the section titled "How do you prefer to be described?". I chose this example because it explains all of the fringe usages of the parameters in the template (namely hero-link). The template, as suggested by <code>no-category=yes</code>, by default, automatically categorizes the file into categories (namely: [[:Category:Guilds]] [[:Category:Gods]] [[:Category:Heroes]] and [[:Category:Backstage]]) Feedback and suggestions can be left on my [[User talk:Emptysora/sandbox|sandbox's talk page]].
 
 
 
: Type currently supports: god, hero, guild, and forum. If you have any other suggestions for file uses, please tell me. I want this template to be as complete as possible from the get-go.
 
 
 
: -- [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 00:06, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: There is already an existing guideline for the upload file within the [[Creators Manual]], it just needs improvement (I did my best, but obviously I missed some points when I rewrote that whole article).
 
 
 
:: Categorizing the image is ok, obviously. But as Djonni pointed, is there really a need to mark for delete except for unused obvious dupes and unused copyrighted content?
 
 
 
::As for your template, as impressive it is technically (great work seriously), I don't see the point apart from polluting the file page (please don't take it bad, I know i kind of say that too blunt) and it feels a little... agressive somehow.
 
::In theory, files won't be changed by people, unless by mistake or by vandalism.
 
::The former will be worried about the warning and may takes it the bad way, while the later will not care obviously.
 
::But as revert is quite easy it's not an issue. Basically, I'd say that changing any file upload by another user falls into [[Rules#2]]. And if the file is deleted, it will be by the Devs, who will never be wrong if they delete a file. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 00:42, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: I don't see how it would pollute the file page. The purpose of the template is to provide information about what the file is, and where it is used. It presents this information in a clear, easy to understand, way. If you click a photo on a monster article and see said file, you obviously understand that the image is an image of a monster. Say you click on the "random image" link on the Main page, without looking at the file name, description provided by the uploader, and the pages linking to the image, it's impossible to tell what the image is. And, in the case of images on [[Special:UnusedFiles]], all you have to go on is the description provided by the uploader (which is, in the vast majority of cases, missing), and the file name. Even if modifying files uploaded by other users falls into [[Rules#2]], if all you do is look at the file page, and have never seen the [[Rules]] page (which is most of the people in this game), you won't know that.
 
 
 
::: The "Please do not delete or modify this content without permission" message is supposed to just tell the user not to make edits or flag for deletion without contacting the owner/discussing it. That's why it links to the appropriate talk pages. I understand the verbiage sounds aggressive, but verbiage can be changed. We shouldn't ''not'' do something just because the first incarnation of it can be considered aggressive and taken the wrong way. That goes against everything a wiki stands for: collaboration.
 
 
 
::: {{tqi|"But as Djonni pointed, is there really a need to mark for delete except for unused obvious dupes and unused copyrighted content?"}}, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. The only things I suggested be marked for deletion is duplicate files, copyrighted content, and content that is against the ToU/ToS of the site. Aside from the last item, that's exactly what I said (when I agreed with him). What I'm suggesting is that we call on users to see if they have any files or whatever they want to get rid of, before we send the request to the devs to do a mass deletion, since there's likely not going to be another opportunity to remove files for a long time. IE: I want to at least give the others a chance to get rid of anything they don't want anymore instead of just not telling them we did this.
 
 
 
::: While the "This file is an image." title may seem redundant, it's not because images aren't the only thing that can be uploaded (even if the allowed extensions only permit images). Not to mention, I simply couldn't think of what to put there. I can either remove or edit the message so it's not so useless, which is, again, why I wanted feedback.
 
 
 
::: -- [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 01:21, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::: Cool template. :)
 
 
 
:::: It's been a long time since I've actually set up my Godwiki preferences. Is the gender preference from the users settings automatically populated from their God/Goddess status, or does it default to something (hopefully gender neutral)? I would also suggest removing the link to the hero(ine) talk page, as messages left their won't trigger an alert to the user when they next visit, so 99% would never be seen.
 
 
 
:::: I know that a bunch of image use templates are used on wikipedia and a lot of other wikis. They've never been used here, obviously, and I thing there's some reasons for that. My main question about the file use template, which isn't obvious to me... who is expected to be placing these templates on images, and when? And within 'who', I'm bundling in a question about how familiar that group of intended users are with templates, parameters, etc, and how they will find out about the template.
 
 
 
:::: Is it intended to be a part of the spring clean effort, a way for people to mark their images as still wanted? Because if that's the case, I think it's way too hard to use (our target group there is likely to have ''very'' little wiki literacy). I honestly would think that simply removing the {{tlf|delete}} template from an image they want kept will be at the upper limits of what folks will figure out how to do. If this is the intended use, I would ''really'' aim for purest of simplicity. E.g., something named along the lines of {{tlc|Keep image}} with one optional unnamed parameter for the username, with documentation that recommends placing in pages like so: {{tlc|Keep image|&#126;&#126;&#126;}}. (An {{tlc|&#35;ifexist: User:{{param|1}}}} would catch cases where a username is manually entered.)
 
 
 
:::: My biggest concern is that it will just not be used. Or, more specifically, that it will become another thing that we wiki gardeners will need to do on every uploaded image, just for our own benefit, in which case I wonder if ''we'' would actually take the time use it, switching between screens and copy-pasting stuff to fill in all those parameters with other people's information...? Does it offer us materially more information than the "File usage" section at the bottom? -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 10:42, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::::: In arelated vein, ref [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=SilverWolves&curid=7105&diff=111013&oldid=47834 this edit] comment: {{tqi|after said guilds no longer exist...? What do we do with these? Redirect to Main Page certainly isn't the answer}}
 
 
 
::::: I completely agree, and it's something we've discussed  a little (at [[Talk:Main_Page/Archive#Many_GodWiki_pages_need_to_be_deleted]], which we should consider un-archiving as part of the spring clean). As you'll see there, I agree that the main page redirects are a terrible solution, and have already argued that those redirects should be removed, but we didn't reach consensus. It was a part of why I created {{tl|Delete guild}}, and arged that these pages should go into a special Category. (I suggested 'Category:Dead guilds' at the time, but I don't think that 'dead' is the right word anymore, and would argue for 'Category:Guilds not widely known on Godville', in light of later discussion with {{u|WardPhoenix}} at [[Template talk:Delete guild]].) -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 11:23, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{outdent|:::::}}
 
I’ve seen a few edits by people who have done such redirects with the excuse “it’s not going to be deleted anyway.” Aside from how pessimistic or cynical that is, redirecting pages to Main Page without using “Delete” when, at the time, it actually existed, seems a bit... weird and arbitrary.
 
 
 
The preference defaults to gender neutral.
 
 
 
Ideally, I would like the template on all images (and I can rewrite it to make it easier to use for inexperienced editors). In other words, it would (hopefully) be something the uploader can just copy and paste into the “description” box when they upload (ie: in the same vein as the article infobox templates). It’s purpose isn’t to mark things as “to keep” but to show the purpose of an image in a clear manner. The only place I’d really say it’s required is when images are no longer in use, or images uploaded for the forums. Like with other other guideline articles, we can move the image guidelines to a separate, dedicated, article, and describe how to use the template. Alternatively, we can add a “Images” subheading to the guideline articles, describing a case-by-case use of the template.
 
 
 
Really, though, I don’t think it’s that important if the template is on the monster, artifact, equipment, and quests. Those are half obvious. The message is pretty redundant and unnecessary on those anyway, I only added those parameters for consistency with the types of images uploaded. Ie: I would only suggest putting them on guild/god/hero images.
 
 
 
What I could also do is split up the template into “guild-file” “god-file” and “hero-file” templates making the usage much easier (like we do with the already split guild, usergod, hero, and the other templates.)
 
 
 
The “File usage” at the bottom, especially if the files aren’t used, gives *no* information (and neither does the description in most cases). Anything the template says would be information that section cannot provide. Not to mention, this information wouldn’t disappear as soon as the file goes into disuse.
 
 
 
Though, I don’t see how the usage of this template really affects our spring cleaning. Like I did with stubs, if we ultimately decide to use the template (if even in a subset of files), we can remove the category references if we add said template.
 
 
 
— [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 15:37, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
: As a side note, I've started categorizing the files. I started from most recently uploaded to the least recently uploaded. If you guys see new files on the wiki that haven't been categorized, do you mind categorizing them (that's why I started from most recent, I'll eventually clear through my 4,786 image backlog and then we only need to worry about new images)
 
 
 
: I'm putting notes on my edits where possible, you all might want to read them as they contain ideas/suggestions, potential copyright issues, etc.. Recent changes only shows up to 500 edits, so to see all of mine, you'll have to go to [[Special:Contributions/Emptysora|my contributions]]. They're all in the format "categorizing: {categories} [(notes)]". Similarly to hide my file edits on Recent changes, you have to select "File" from the namespace menu, and check "Invert Selection".
 
 
 
: As per usual, I uploaded the script I'm using to my website, so you can download it if you want. Details on how it works are on [[User:Emptysora|my user page]]. (all the way at the bottom)
 
 
 
: I'm planning on going through roughly 500 images a day (might only do 300 today because of how late it is right now), so I should be completely done in under two weeks.
 
 
 
: I quick overview of the script: Scrapes the list of files on the server using [[Special:ListFiles]], provides a semi-automatic way to edit images. It provides a sidebar with a bunch of buttons that can add/remove categories from the page, and another sidebar that views the "Read" page of the file (so you can see the image/description/file usages/etc.). It removes the copyright warning in the editor so the "Save changes" button is in-view (less scrolling). It removes the "delete|unused" template call automatically. and automatically sets the edit to "minor" and the summary to "categorizing: [categories]" (auto-updated). Every time you save the page (or click "Read" to exit the editor), the script moves on to the next image on the site, allowing you to sequentially batch edit the files. '''(EDIT)''' [https://gyazo.com/cf4a94d8a5bf6431851c6ad58b856256 Screenshot].
 
 
 
: -- [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 02:20, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: Touching this thread just to let people know I haven’t forgotten about it. I '''will''' get to this. Kind of been busy lately, sorry. You can see my user page for a more up to date status of this project (and other projects I’m working on). — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 02:42, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
== Pages marked for deletion tend to redirect here ==
 
 
 
I don't think this is a good practice. See [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=Special%3AWhatLinksHere&hidetrans=1&hidelinks=1&target=Main+Page&namespace= this page] for a list of redirects to the main page. --[[User:Uni34|Uni34]] ([[User talk:Uni34|talk]]) 08:14, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
: Yup, I completely agree. The main page redirects came first in most cases, and were then marked for deletion. I argued for the redirects to simply be replaced with {{tlc|Delete}}, as I felt then and still do that those redirects are very disorientating for people especially for people who don't understand how wikis work. But this conversation happened a while ago, (I can't find it now) and folks didn't seem to agree with me, so I started adding {{tl|Delete}} to those redirects as I came across them, leaving the redirects in place.
 
 
 
: But, since someone else has brought it up again... I completely agree, redirecting hundreds of random unneeded pages to the Main Page instead of marking then for deletion with a clear reason was, I think, always a bad idea! I'd love to get rid of aaallllll those redirects if those here now agree that it's a good idea. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 08:33, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: 👍-- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 01:53, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
= 2020 =
 
 
 
== Note about creating a special kind of article ==
 
 
 
See [https://godvillegame.com/forums/redirect_to_post/2?post=1289223 this post]. The idea is interesting , but we should considerate if we need to create one article regrouping all of those advices or having those advices in every concerned articles (dungeon/sail/etc)
 
: Both, it will be a pain to keep updated, but that way new people coming in will know their needs are being considered and met. In every page, so that everyone is integrated within the community. --[[User:Sand Devil|Sand Devil]] ([[User talk:Sand Devil|talk]]) 21:00, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
== JanuWiki 2020 Ideas and Planning ==
 
 
 
Heya once again! I did a bit of poking around in the JanuWiki 2019 page, and couldn't find any plans for what the next theme is gonna be. It never hurts to start planning early, so I kinda decided to start gathering a few ideas. After looking around the internet for some potential New Year themes, I have three potential suggestions:
 
# A glasses/vision-related theme. It's going to be 2020 - it shall be the year of perfect vision and clarity!
 
# Something related to time. Similar reason as the first one (mostly because I already anticipate all of the 'hindsight is 20/20' puns that the year will bring), but there's also the whole 'marking of another year going by'. Sounds a bit on the melodramatic side, though.
 
# Chinese zodiac time! Now, there isn't exactly a whole lot of potential rodent-themed articles on here (2020 is the year of the Rat, after all), but I did some cross-referencing! Apparently there are Chinese elemental years too, and next year's element is going to be Metal. So, Metal/Rat articles?
 
I know it's really early, but I really want to help the next JanuWiki be like the first one (cuz seriously, the sheer number of content was really amazing + fun to read)! What do you guys think? --[[User:Arcanedreamer|Arcanedreamer]] ([[User talk:Arcanedreamer|talk]]) 02:47, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
: [[User:Arcanedreamer|Arcanedreamer]], I actually think that those are pretty great ideas! I for one have try to give JanuWiki 2020 any serious thought, but using a 20/20 theme is a brilliant thought!
 
 
 
: One (really great) thing that happened with JanuWiki 2019 is that as the event rolled on we had to expand and extend it to new themes, bring more ideas into the event, and keep offering don't exciting new ideas for people who just didn't get inputted enough by the first tranche of suggestions. So having a handful of interesting, related-ish, but quite diverse options is really valuable. I think working with the 20/20 concepts you've suggested first (vision, hindsight, foresight, time) is an excellent focal point (pun intended), with metal and rodent articles tucked up our sleeves for when/if we need to grow the theme. For 2019, we started all about beer, and from brainstorming and adapting we added bosses, lions, tigers, and bears over the month. So we've seen that a diverse and interesting collection of ideas can really help catch the interest of folks who might only like one part of it.
 
 
 
: Later today I'll do some surveying to see what missing or stubbed articles will be captured by these themes, and that will give us a more concrete notion of how they would look for an event! -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 08:38, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::Themes' Ideas looks good. I wonder if doing a survey on the forums could be usefull to see if people would be willing to participate in the event, and what they think could be improved compared to previous ones. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 18:33, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: I'm actually really happy you guys like my ideas! So, thing is, I already did [[User:Arcanedreamer#Art_Stuff|a bit of artwork]] in anticipation of JanuWiki 2020. I'm perfectly fine with doing a couple more items in order to make the event look even better, but I'd like to know ahead of time if that's okay. And if so, maybe let me know ASAP if there's any specific items you guys would want so that I don't have to do a rush job at the last minute? --[[User:Arcanedreamer|Arcanedreamer]] ([[User talk:Arcanedreamer|talk]]) 19:49, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::: So, I got around to that thing I said I would do yesterday... I've started a survey of possible articles for the two theme groups ('''20/20''' and '''Metal Rat''') at [[Djonni/Shared sandbox]] (note that I've intentionally kept that out of my <code>User:</code> area so that everybody can tinker with, improve or extend it). I was pretty inclusive about what I captured for the 20/20 theme, and only just started on the Metal Rat articles (I've saved it in progress, I'll carry on and on anon. 🎵🎶''Alalalalalonglonglilonglonglong, sing it''🎶🎵
 
 
 
:::: I definitely agree [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]], we should take this to the forums, but before w're ready to do that we should have a very clear idea of what the theme ideas we're presenting are, I think, so that folks there have some concrete, fully though out and fleshed out things to discuss and contribute to. Let's discuss and refine the articles and concepts a little more together here first!
 
 
 
:::: And for readers who are following this but have not yet joined the conversation &mdash; '''''please''''' share your thoughts, good, bad, or whatever they may be!
 
 
 
:::: [[User:Arcanedreamer|Arcanedreamer]], whoa, I'm pretty impressed by your artwork there! Personally I think that's a great piece of decoration for the main page announcement, and will probably be useful in places on the main event page too, fantastic work! Something that I discovered doing the theme survey &mdash; '''Did You Know''' that there's actually a [[Steel Rat]] monster in Godville? I feel like the Steel Rat would make an excellent mascot for JanuWiki 2020, regardless of how the theming conversation goes, what do you guys think? Your geometric artwork there is excellent, [[User:Arcanedreamer|Arcanedreamer]], I suspect a Steel Rat is much harder. Do you think it's within your scope? There will probably be some reuse-permitted images we could use, so it's entirely up to you! :) -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 14:45, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::::: [[User:Djonni|Djonni]], I hear a mild challenge in there. I shall accept and prove your skepticism wrong! In all seriousness, though, it sounds like a fun way to push at my pixel art boundaries (I've been doing nothing but inanimate objects so far, ehehe....)! Also, two things - should I go ahead and place whatever JanuWiki 2020 art I end up creating in the sandbox? And are there any other art requests? --[[User:Arcanedreamer|Arcanedreamer]] ([[User talk:Arcanedreamer|talk]]) 15:07, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
It looks like from [[Djonni/Shared sandbox]] that there is already quite the amount of articles found within both them (good work finding them by the way). So now, what? Do we use the forum to see if there is people interested in a potential event before throwing anything and thinking of the form JanuWiki 2020 could take? --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 13:58, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:Sorry guys, been a busy week at work! [[User:Arcanedreamer|Arcanedreamer]], your [[:File:SteelRat.png|Steel Rat]] is great! I'm very impressed! :D
 
 
 
:Yeah, [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]], if you guys are happy with the lists at [[Djonni/Shared sandbox]] then we should probably take it to the forum. I'll create a dedicated talk topic for JanuWiki 2020 ideas and planning, so that folks don't feel like they need to wade through months of discussion above to get up to speed. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 15:48, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::Well, I just posted an ''offensively'' long message on the forums ({{cite forum|308|1274998}}) so if anyone's masochistic enough to actually read it, welcome to the conversation! 😅 -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 17:38, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::Bold of you to assume that I would think reading a long forum post is a masochistic action. In all seriousness, I think you did a good job doing an early advertisement for the event! Hopefully it'll attract old and new participants alike~! --[[User:Arcanedreamer|Arcanedreamer]] ([[User talk:Arcanedreamer|talk]]) 23:47, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::::So, with the new [[Book of Creation]] update, should we consider a chance in focus to all things related to '''words''', '''books''', and '''writing'''? -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 16:53, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::::Maybe? I mean, on one hand, I think we're fine with the themes we already have - look at how many articles that are already available! On the other hand, people tend to be a lot more hyped up for new things, so there's a pretty good chance that more people would be interested. In the end, I guess it just depends on how big you're expecting this next JanuWiki is gonna be.  --[[User:Arcanedreamer|Arcanedreamer]] ([[User talk:Arcanedreamer|talk]]) 02:33, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{outdent|:::::}}I've done a rapid survey of book and word themed items at [[Djonni/Shared sandbox#Books and words]]. The main takeaway from that is that there's essentially no monsters (the most popular creator category by far) and a huuuge list of artifacts that don't offer the same variety and breadth that the other categories do.
 
 
 
It might still be nice for us to do ''something'' about books and words with the [[Book of Creation]] update, but I think making it a part of JanuWiki isn't going to create a lot of excitement.
 
 
 
And to answer that question, {{u|Arcanedreamer}}, I am anticipating that this JanuWiki will be a little smaller than the last one. But we won't know until we see for ourselves. :) -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 06:49, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
===Decoration Questions and Art Requests===
 
Alrighty, so I noticed that the navboxes for the past GodWiki vents tend to have a neat little picture instead of a simple dot separating the different articles. I'm not entirely sure how that works - is there a way to place our own pics (I.E. some specialized JanuWiki pixel art icons) in there, or are we limited to a preset group of images? I was about to start working on a few icon designs before realizing that I didn't know if we're able to even use them. --[[User:Arcanedreamer|Arcanedreamer]] ([[User talk:Arcanedreamer|talk]]) 05:10, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:Well when I made {{tlx|navbox items}} I built in quite a bit of flexibility for exactly this kind of reason! :) Using the {{para|bullet}} parameter, you can set the separator between list items to anything you want. We usually use emoji characters for this, which has benefits and drawbacks, but there's no reason why we can't use an image!
 
:The image that we use in the {{tlx|god}} template for this: {{god|Arcanedreamer}} is rendered as 17x17 pixels, making it just a little taller than the line on most screens. In the wiki software used to run the GodWiki, there's no way to make the size of an image dynamic in any way, so we will have to decide on pixel dimensions to use (and the wiki doesn't have support for any vector image types either, so a small bullet-sized image won't stretch or shrink well on a lot of screens).
 
:If you think you can come up with some cool tiny bullet images for navbox use, I think that would be great! We can do a bit of experimenting and see how well it works. I'll leave choices about size up to you, but it might be wise to aim for something that's around 12x12 to 8x8, and using transparency if you don't want it to be a square block :)
 
:To test out how it looks in a navbox list, use this:
 
 
 
:<code><nowiki>{{navbox items|bullet=[[File:</nowiki><var>Filename.ext</var><nowiki>]]|List item one|List item two|List item three}}</nowiki></code>
 
 
 
:Which should give you something like this:
 
:{{navbox items|bullet=[[File:Godicon.png|12x12px]]|List item one|List item two|List item three}}
 
:If you want to play with different render sizes, you can put <code>|12x12px</code> or <code>|10x10px</code> etc in the image options like <code><nowiki>[[File:...|12x12px]]</nowiki></code>. :) -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 06:31, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
== Category: Test templates ==
 
 
 
I have reclaimed the dead category, [[:Category:Test templates]], for use again. Please feel free to tag any sandbox template that you would like people to play with and give you feedback on with this category tag.
 
 
 
I'd advise that any test template should include enough {{tlx|doc|content{{=}}<var>Documentation</var>}} to allow people to see what it is and how it works, at least enough to give them a start on figuring it out and giving feedback. 😊 -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 08:06, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
=2021=
 
 
 
== Featured article ==
 
 
 
Hey tech savvy peoplez! What's the notice about more than 53 parameters not being supported? I'd that cuz there are too many articles in the rotation? --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 21:31, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
: It's actually a bug induced by the {{tlx|Weekly choice}} template inside the {{tlx|Featured/Previous}}'s one inside the {{tlx|Featured}}'s one. As for the why, my wild guess would be a good old "out of range" issue, it seems it can't hold the negative offset as I expected and end up stuck in negative value with the current value being 1.
 
: Gonna do a fix, hoping it won't break as weeks goes on. -- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 08:34, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
== Facelift ==
 
 
 
Hi all, I think that the mainpage can use a bit of a facelift. It could definitely look more modern, and use some polishing. In general a new look every few years keeps things fresh. I have a few ideas, but I'm looking to hear from the community what ideas or suggestions they have. Things that should or should not be included, layout ideas, how to make the page more inviting, all good things.
 
 
 
In addition, I'd like to reopen the above discussion about doing a survey. The goal of the makeover is to encourage more participation in the GodWiki. I think the survey is important to help us figure out what is needed to get that participation, and the questions should be geared towards that end.
 
 
 
--[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 12:08, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
: Leaving the survey discussion to the topic above, I'm pretty open to a facelift of the main page. However the main page is ''super'' technical, so it's going to need very careful sandbox testing before any changes are rolled out. And, since it is quite technical, it's probably going to be my job to do that, unless someone else has the skills and interest to make and test any required changes.
 
 
 
: What would we want to change, if we can make any changes we like to the Main Page? Are we just talking about freshening up the design to look more "modern and polished", without a major redesign? And what exactly do we mean by "modern and polished", because someone has to ''do'' that, and it's just flat not possible to do fancy design stuff here on the wiki. Are we talking about a rewrite of the wording? Rethinking what should be on the front page at all? -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 06:44, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: As someone with zero knowledge of the how-to, I have some ideas and questions lol. I was wondering if it was possible to embed a giant background and have all the text show up against it? That way the background can look nicer in a way which probably will totally screw up the mobile version of the main page 😂. I think the content of the main page should be reevaluated, there is a bit too much on it. Less is more. It needs a cleaner look. I think a link to a daily digest is preferable to having all the current articles on the main page itself. If you look at Wikipedia's main page, there are these little basic pictures with a weird next to it, such as "Commons: Free usable photos", and if we can implement that here it would be great. I'm imagining a little 2d monster, an artifact, a 2d silhouette of a building, etc.
 
 
 
:: Users with not much experience can still help with collecting the backgrounds, symbols, pictures, and also with rewriting what should be there. --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 07:34, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: Responding in pieces:
 
 
 
::: {{tqi|q=y|I was wondering if it was possible to embed a giant background}}: No. Probably not in the way you imagine, at least. You may have noticed the complete absence of background images in the entire wiki, with one exception that I know of: my own [[Djonni|user page]]'s {{tl|Usergod}}. It is possible (but '''not''' easy) to create a repeating, patterned background using overlapping [https://www.w3schools.com/css/css3_gradients.asp CSS gradients,] but to "embed a giant background" is not possible. And beside the question of it being possible, there's a significant question of it being ''desirable'': such backgrounds can have really significant impacts on the vision impaired if not handled with a lot of care. Perhaps a concrete example of what you imagine ''would'' make for a better background than the current plain color blocks?
 
 
 
::: {{tqi|q=y|probably will totally screw up the mobile version}}: Yes, this is important to keep foremost in our minds when discussing changes. Negative impacts on 1) mobile users, and 2) accessibility, completely override any aesthetic or technical preferences we have.
 
 
 
::: {{tqi|q=y|there is a bit too much on it}}: I completely agree with you there, I've always felt the main page was ''way'' too text-heavy 👍
 
 
 
::: {{tqi|q=y|I think a link to a daily digest is preferable to having all the current articles on the main page itself}}: I'm afraid I don't understand this, can you try to explain what you mean?
 
 
 
::: {{tqi|q=y|If you look at Wikipedia's main page, there are these little basic pictures with a weird next to it}}: If I understand this right, you're talking about changing the bulleted list in the top panel of our Main Page (•&nbsp;Gameplay •&nbsp;Monsters •&nbsp;Pets, etc) to resemble the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page#Wikipedia.27s_sister_projects "Wikipedia's sister projects"] section of the Wikipedia main page...? That's fine, but it makes it ''very'' difficult for people to change that list in future, and it will take up a ''lot'' more screen space. So we'd better discuss what that list will contain, and whether it would still be at the top. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 08:03, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{outdent|:::}} Some points:
 
# The background would be unnecessary if the main page was slimmed down and cleaner. A plain white backgrounmd would then be preferable, in my opinion. See [Wikipedia.org] for what I think we should be modeling.
 
# In regards to a daily digest, I mean that we currently have a Featured Article and Daily Image on the main page. Perhaps to a link to a page with those two on it would be better. Same with a FYI or FAQ or a DYK section. It should be a link to a page, not on the page itself.
 
# Links should appear as [[image:Example link.jpg|border|link=https://www.wikibooks.org/]] instead of simple links. It is very aesthetically pleasing, and makes the page more exciting. To ease the future editors' job, each link can be an image with a link embedded in it, as explained [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Pictures#Links here]. Any editor can replace the picture, change the link, or add new pictures with links quite easily. I made my picture clickable to open the wikibooks site so you can see what I mean.
 
I don't think this is that hard, especially since the main page will be very clean. It will (hopefully) require less formatting for mobile and be easier to navigate.
 
--[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 12:36, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
:{{tqi|q=y|I think a link to a daily digest is preferable to having all the current articles on the main page itself}} I think the idea is to create a "Godwiki Times" that would change daily and have the current daily info (featured, do you know, random image, maybe more?)
 
 
 
:I do think we should take a look for inspiration at others wikis. I personally do like the Terraria one as example (having every single main content listed on main page with image instead of bullets. Maybe not suited to Godwiki). But the main issue of the main page is clearly the banner to me. I don't think the rest of the page is that bad.
 
 
 
:Globally I would gladly also help a little on the redo of the page as I am in training for web developement so that would be good training for me 🤣. -- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 12:44, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: {{tqi|q=y|To ease the future editors' job, each link can be an image with a link embedded in it}} &mdash; It's the use of images at ''all'' that makes it difficult for future editors. Let's say in future it's decided that the header there should focus on the [[Template:Navbox_goals|game goals]], not on the content categories. If it's text only, that's maybe 3 minutes work. With images and links and layouts etc, it becomes a day just finding the pictures, or, in most likelihood, having to make the pictures from scratch which, unless it's something you do regularly, probably takes more like a week of learning and fiddling. 3 minutes to a week. Y'see what I mean? Even just changing one item (say, Geography comes off, Towns goes on; or Godville's History comes off, Ideabox goes on) becomes a massive pain in the arse with images. Right now, it's about 15 seconds work. 30 if you preview your changes, heh.
 
 
 
:: I'm not saying we definitely shouldn't do it; I'm just making sure we're aware of the non-obvious outcomes of the changes we're considering. And I'm certainly all for things being easier to navigate on mobile, so I'm definitely positive about that in general. But the images are a bit of a pandora's box.
 
 
 
:: As for a {{tqi|daily digest}}, my feeling is that if it's not worth having on the Main Page then it's not worth having. Who's going to look at a daily digest? Nobody. The Featured Article is a showcase and reward for people who contribute awesome content, I personally feel quite strongly that it should stay, though the snippets of text should be short. The featured image, well, meh. Quite a lot of the Godwiki's images are old rubbish, and the RandomImage extension has no way of limiting the image choice to certain categories, so if we want to get rid of that then that's fine by me. DYK can probably be reduced to one line now that it's a rotation, which means that if we like the DYK box can be dissolved and the text can be incorporated into some other part of the page. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 14:13, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: Also, I wanna apologize if any of this is coming through as grumpy! It's not intentional, I'm having a bad day and I'm in a bad mood, so I hope it's not bleeding through too much 😅 -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 14:25, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{outdent|:::}} First, [[User:Djonni|Djonni]], if this is you at your worst I can't wait to see you at your best. Hugs and I hope your day gets better.
 
 
 
To address [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]], the Terraria Wiki is really cool, but would be really hard to put together for godville. It would require tons of hours compiling lists of what should be included. As a long term project, I'm all for it, but I think it would be years before we really got to the point of Terraria.
 
 
 
I don't want to be the voice of doom, but I started wondering; before we go into a big project like this, how long will Godville still be around? The devs don't really push the game in the playstore, so the user base is dying out. Which brings me to [[User:Djonni|Djonni's]] points. Even if this does make it harder in the future, what is the chance that there will be another major overhaul of the Main Page or the GodWiki? I think if we have a good idea and people are willing to join in the effort, we should go for it. With that in mind, I'd love to arrange the page in a way that leaves space for something like the Terraria Wiki, meaning start now on the basic page, and create a sandbox page with the rest as a sort of long term project. I think there won't really be much future editing a few years down the line and we can safely do whatever we want. I am new to this and have only been watching the wiki a few months, and been actively contributing even less, so good chance I'm wrong. [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] will correct me if I am, he's my guiding voice of reason.
 
 
 
Worst case scenario, some future editor comes along and wants to make a complete change to the page, they can rip it up and make it text again. Maybe even leave a <code><nowiki><!-- note --></nowiki></code> with a link to a sandbox version of the page as it currently is, so any editor can easily put back the original main page if it is too difficult for them to deal with and they really want to make a major overhaul.
 
 
 
I definitely understand the sentiment about the featured article staying, especially seeing how it encourages more people to write and rewards those that did. We have to figure out a way to include it that looks fresh, and doesn't take over the page. The way it is now, the main opage has no focus, it is a seemingly random jumble of info.
 
 
 
One last point, there are some things on the main page that are there in duplicate or even triplicate. Some examples are the link to the Guidebook (x3), Creators manual (x2), [[Help:Requests]] (x2). With a cleaner page, each of these important links will be easier to find, and will not need to be linked in a bunch of places with the hope that people find them.
 
 
 
--[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 21:02, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
: Hi! I’ve been learning about the wiki the past few months and recently started working more on editing the wiki. I have some thoughts on your ideas based on my short experience so far—to add a less experienced user POV. First, I do have experience with HTML, CSS, and JS; what is easily possible on a website using that trio (or just the first two) is not so easy on this wiki. {{U|Djonni}} and {{U|WardPhoenix}} know waaay more about the technical aspects of WikiMedia and the GodWiki than me. But even I’ve realized how hard it is to deal with images and certain formatting, especially trying to make changes that work on both desktop and mobile devices.
 
 
 
: There has been an ongoing effort to make the wiki more mobile-view friendly, which I support since I usually access it through my phone nowadays. I started playing Godville in a desktop browser almost 9 years ago. It is because I discovered the mobile app (iOS) that I came back to the game after 5+ years. I’d guess userbase comes and goes.
 
 
 
: Even with all the really hard work on mobile-compatibility, it’s a work in progress. For example, there are still individual articles (not on major pages) that need wiki code adjustments so images and text float properly and the mobile layout doesn’t hide part of the text behind an image.
 
 
 
: Do you usually (or always) access the GodWiki from a desktop browser? I’m curious because to me the Main Page doesn’t seem like a jumble of random info without any focus. Sure, there could be improvements, but the main info (or links) I’m looking for is what I almost immediately see filling the screen when I open the Main page. I usually don’t need to scroll much at all. Maybe the stacked layout on the mobile version makes it seem more streamlined? I use the desktop view on rare occasions, but admit I’m more used to mobile.
 
 
 
: Even without technical limitations, I’m strongly against an embedded background on whatever screen size. I do have vision issues where certain backgrounds can trigger migraines or make reading difficult. Unless it is an unobtrusive shade in a solid color, page backgrounds can be problematic in general.
 
 
 
: Finally, I don’t want to seem like I’m just piling on criticism. Different and new ideas can spark great changes! 👍🏼 I suppose I have a more utilitarian view of the GodWiki, though. I want to be able to find accurate, current, and easily understandable information. From my own experience first poking around, then gradually feeling more comfortable editing the wiki, I know there are many updates and/or reorganization needed (or being considered) for various documentation or content. A fresh look is less important than content updates to me. Of course, if the layout impedes finding content that is a problem. 😊 -- [[User:Bibliophile|Bibliophile]] ([[User talk:Bibliophile|talk]]) 00:52, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: The more perspectives the better, {{u|Bibliophile}}, thanks for jumping in 😊 It's really nice to be having conversations about the wiki that aren't just {{u|WardPhoenix}} and I agreeing with each other 😂 And as you're no doubt discovering (({{u|WardPhoenix}} too, if you're studying web design at the moment), wanting to improve the wiki and having {{tqi|experience with HTML, CSS, and JS}} is pretty much an exercise in constant frustration 😉 Having no access to the site's CSS is a frequent source of frustration, especially when images and the lack of responsive design rears its head. Anyway, I digress.
 
 
 
:: Regarding {{tqi|q=q|how long will Godville still be around}}, why don't we proceed on the assumption that this game with ~20,000 active players at its least busy times, which is the little sister of a Russian-language game with closer to 100,000 active players, ''will'' still be around for as long as the Devs are alive and earning enough money to continue with it, shall we? It's very important to remember that ''most of the game's players '''use''''' the wiki, and that most of the game's players simultaneously ''know nothing'' and ''don't care'' about the wiki and how it works until it doesn't work for them. As {{u|Bibliophile}} pointed out, and I can also attest to from my own Honoured Renegade achievement, it's totally common for individual players to drift in and out over the years, and for the ''attention'' of individual players to drift in and out of the Godwiki as well. The future of the game, and the future of the Godwiki, is as long as it is foreseeable, and our decisions need to assume that during that long future, none of us may be around, and those who want to fix up and improve the game in that future will need to rely on the archives of these conversation and the page histories to figure out what the hell was going on in the last decade. (Trust me on this, it's what {{u|FeRDNYC}} (''ʿalayhi s-salām'') and I had to do several years ago as we tried to pull this place back from dereliction once already.)
 
 
 
:: Your impulse to preserve the page state for future editors is a good impulse but not needed: it's unfeasible (and ultimately confusing) to keep a separate snapshot of ''every'' past state of a page that a future editor may want to refer to; the page history is already built for that. What's needed are helpful, clear edit summaries, so that in future someone can pull up the history and read through each step that was taken and zoom in on the one they need to inspect. All of us who really care about the Godwiki should head to [[Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-editing]] and enable the option to "Prompt me when entering a blank edit summary" (and while you're there, probably "Mark all edits minor by default").
 
 
 
:: I've been thinking more about the images idea for the banner list, and if you'll permit me, I'm suspecting we're falling into an [[wikipedia:XY problem|XY problem]]. Laying aside the actual images for a moment, if I've understood right, the crux of the suggestion is probably an attempt to achieve the following:
 
::* Some more whitespace around the list items;
 
::* Some decoration of the list items.
 
:: I've actually been on a long-term mission to ''stamp out'' small or repetitive images everywhere I can on the wiki ({{tlx|God}} continues to be one of my last areas of frustration) for a long list of technical and accessibility reasons that are mostly to do with how infuriatingly ''dumb'' this wiki is with inserting images into pages. The solution that we have been moving towards is emojis, with some care to be aware that newer emojis still have really bad cross-device support and must be avoided. Emojis are correctly rendered (with the previous caveat) on any device, they are correctly handled by screen readers (all emojis have a name in words), and they scale intelligently for those who need to zoom pages for readability. (Images used inline with text like we're proposing are a ''total nightmare'' for people with a vision impairment who actually like to, y'know, read things themselves, just zoomed in. They can quickly make a page completely unusable.)
 
::So, perhaps one solution is that we create a nicely designed touch target for the banner link list that includes emojis instead of images? It'll take some tweaking and mocking up, but here's a bit of an attempt:
 
<div style="margin: 0.1rem 0.4rem; columns: 3 8em; column-gap: 1em; overflow: auto; line-height: 250%; font-size: 130%;">
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; width: 8em;">[[:Category:Gameplay|🎲 Gameplay]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; width: 8em;">[[List of Monsters|👹 Monsters]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; width: 8em;">[[Pets|🐾 Pets]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; width: 8em;">[[List of Artifacts|💎 Artifacts]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; width: 8em;">[[List of Quests|📘 Quests]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; width: 8em;">[[List of Equipment|🗡️ Equipment]]</div>
 
<!--<li>[[List of Equipment|Equipment]]</li>
 
<li>[[Aura|Auras]]</li>
 
<li>[[List of Skills|Skills]]</li>
 
<li>[[:Category:Geography|Geography]]</li>
 
<li>[[Omnibus List]]</li>
 
<li style=white-space:nowrap>[[History|Godville's History]]</li>
 
<li style=white-space:nowrap>[[Hall of records]]</li>
 
</ul>--></div>
 
:: There's plenty of tweaking we can do to that, of course, spacing, subtle borders, etc, but that's the basic concept I'd propose. Take a look at how it performs in various different viewscreen sizes (on desktop, make the browser window narrower/wider, etc, and try different zoom levels). -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 07:27, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{outdent|::::}} Not to get too much off the main subject, but I can’t change any preferences on [[Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-editing]] or the other preference sections. Either in-app browser or mobile browser. Whenever I try to save, I get a lovely error message like: <code>cbf25ed92a09b357d99092e0] 2020-11-03 23:16:02: Fatal exception of type "MWException"</code>. Is this impossible on mobile? -- [[User:Bibliophile|Bibliophile]] ([[User talk:Bibliophile|talk]]) 00:33, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: {{u|Bibliophile}}, it's nice to hear more voices joining in. I, too, am pretty new around here. You are going for the functional aspect, and the links are right there. I use godville both on pc and mobile so that I can get both perspectives. I think that from a purely functional standpoint you are right; the most important links are at the top. From an aesthetics pov there is a bunch of random information on a main page, although {{u|Djonni}} brought up some very good reasons for some of it to stay. I am mostly concerned with the outdated look, which brings me to the comment by {{u|Djonni}}. I love that [[wikipedia:XY problem|XY problem]]! It really got me thinking again. You are totally right about what I want, mainly more whitespace and a more decorative look than simple wordlinks. Your solution solves my issue completely. I looked at it on mobile and pc, zoomed in and out, and tried to amke it break a little. It still looks pretty good to me.
 
 
 
::: The next issue that I would like to look at is rewording or totally changing the setup. I have a few ideas but I would like to hear other's thoughts first. One quick point though, it should probably be put before the featured article because it is about the godwiki itself and is kind of the natural progression of the page. For some reason on pc it comes second while on mobile it shows up first. I'll leave that to the pros.
 
 
 
::: I think the [[Help:Requests]] needs better representation on the main page. I feel like it should be more noticeable, as someone who was looking for it i skipped right over it the first bunch of times I needed it. --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 10:14, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{outdent|:::}} I'm just inserting a random note here: we have just whizzed past the [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/History:~:text=Godwiki%20comes%20online.%5B Godwiki's decennary, on August 28.] Seems to me like that's an absolutely ideal excuse to really dig into the aesthetics and usability of the main page and, even if some may feel it isn't strictly ''needed'', a fresh coat of paint would probably brighten the place up a bit! So let's keep hashing out the options. Don't be afraid to bring up an idea, even if it turns out to be impossible, unwise, or unpopular. We'll think it through. 😊 No, carry on, sorry for the interruption-- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 12:33, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
: How long do we have to wait before we can start implementing your emoji idea? I say let's start that now, and continue the discussion of how to rewrite the rest of the page as it happens. --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 12:40, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
::{{tqi|It's really nice to be having conversations about the wiki that aren't just {{u|WardPhoenix}} and I agreeing with each other 😂}} Sure enough, not that I don't enjoy those talks 🤣. Joking aside, I really '''like''' that "attempt" you made {{u|Djonni}} it's really clean and probably more eye catchy than the current list on that banner. It might me space consuming though, especially on mobile view. Maybe we should do a try out of it in a sandbox page to be sure?
 
::{{tqi|I think the [[Help:Requests]] needs better representation on the main page. I feel like it should be more noticeable, as someone who was looking for it i skipped right over it the first bunch of times I needed it.}} That's actually both an interesting and frightening comment. As someone who kinda participated tweaking the main page this year, I was '''absolutely convinced''' that having a big bolded button Help right under the banner was clearly enough. Plus it's even mentionned in the introduction and in the do you know of the main page, and you tell me that's not enough? I feel a little sad and like I overlooked something but if you didn't thought that was clear enough, that's surely the case for many other deities (please don't take it personnaly without your comment we wouldn't have input of how not visbily enough it is, and without that we can't improve! 😊) --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 19:55, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: Alright, I guess a bit of explanation '''is''' in order. The reason I had trouble finding help from other users was twofold. First, the big bold help button seemed to be just the regular help like any website, meaning a bunch of articles, not people. I was looking for people to tell me what the hell I was doing wrong. The second issue was that untill recently I was using only mobile, so I never scrolled past the beginning of the page because it looked like nothing I was interested in. I almost never even made it to the main page because I was usually going straight to the page I needed. If I did end up on the main page, it was to find the [[Creators Manual]]. The main page itself didn't seem like it was the place to find help.
 
 
 
::: This was my personal experience, and has much to do with my own assumptions. The [[Help:Requests]] is linked twice on the main page. Not exactly your fault. On the other hand, I do believe that it would be nice if it stood out more, and if it would be clear that this is not just a self help but that other users are helping you. A clean section that is dedicated to help is preferable to the help page link being stuck in the middle of a paragraph. Maybe there should be a help section like I wrote about [[Help_talk:Requests#Remaking_the_help_page|here]] and have those links directly on the main page? --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 21:39, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::: {{u|His portliness}}, I took another look at the desktop view again today and can better understand your point about the Main Page seeming unorganized. In need of a “cleaner” look as {{u|Djonni}} described above. My desktop is rather outdated so I’m not using it much now, which makes comparing these things a bit more difficult. I’m planning on buying a new PC soon, though🤞🏼
 
:::: Hearing your ideas and experiences with the wiki makes me reevaluate my own perspective, which I think is always a good thing. I’ve tended to be a bit too mobile focused lately, partly out of necessity. It’s good to be reminded of all the website designs I complained about when I mostly used a desktop browser! This whole discussion topic has been very informative 😃 <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Bibliophile|Bibliophile]] ([[User talk:Bibliophile|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Bibliophile|contribs]]) 4 November 2020‎</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
 
 
 
{{outdent|::::}} Considering how mobile is overwhelmingly the way that people access ''and'' edit the wiki, I don't actually think it's possible to be {{tqi|a bit too mobile focused}}. The way I see it, the mobile experience should be the focus, and desktop usability should be an afterthought. It's a challenge, though, because any complex editing (especially template coding and design) is just so much harder on mobile, so it means we have to do our work on desktop and then constantly double- and triple-check it on a variety of devices and screen sizes. And even then, it's so hard to make allowances for the smallest, oldest devices which are in use by the Godwiki community &mdash; the game works really great on really cheap, old, crappy phones, and works really great with really cheap, slow, unreliable internet, and so the game's really popular with users of those devices. A profound lack of interest in the mobile experience is one of the things that made the Godwiki so awful in its early years, and it needs constant focus to maintain. 😊
 
 
 
As for the observation that the '''Help''' link seems like it would lead to {{tqi|a bunch of articles, not people}}, I can understand that now that it's pointed out. Perhaps, again, this is a bit of an XY problem &mdash; is this perhaps as simple as changing the link from just '''Help''' to '''Ask for Help''', or perhaps '''Ask Us for Help'''? Does that make it immediately clear that there are ''people'' at the other side?
 
 
 
This week I have a reasonably full workload and a bit going on that limits my capacity to roll up my sleeves on this (or on the {{tlc|Hero}} rebuild, which probably takes a backseat to this project for now). But as soon as I've got ''The Time''™ and the spare mindshare I can get to work on a mock-up in a sandbox page. I'll make it a shared sandbox, so that anyone can fiddle with it. I should point out that while I'm probably the most experienced coder who's active on the Godwiki just now, and I am a programmer by profession, I'm actually ''not'' a web developer, so please don't assume that my web solutions are somehow the ''definitively right answer'' or anything. 😅 I'm a decent programmer, and a decent wikicoder, and I've been around long enough to have already made and learnt from a large number of the worst mistakes available in a wiki setting, that's all. I'm also fairly ''opinionated'' about certain issues around usability and accessibility which one might kindly say is due to our experiences fixing a lot of long-standing problems here, and one might less kindly say means I need to be constantly challenged to question my assumptions, and need to hear a variety of opinions and ideas that aren't my own. So I'm relying on y'all to keep doing that. 😉 -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 07:04, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
: Oops! Sorry I forgot to sign my last comment. Truthfully, I’ve been extremely distracted all week while waiting anxiously for the US election results to show who would win the presidency. (Um, yes, I’m American 🤷🏻‍♀️).
 
 
 
: I largely agree with your thoughts. I’m impressed with how much you do on the wiki in general! Real life work definitely takes priority 😉 I’m definitely not a programmer. Nor an expert website developer/designer, but...I know the huge importance of responsive design in making it easier to create cross-platform, cross-device, mobile-friendly sites. Unfortunately, as you’ve said, the CSS-limitations of the wiki makes that much more difficult. The fact this runs an older version of MediaWiki is confusing, too, since some of the more detailed help documents on the ''other'' site refer to things we can’t actually do. I’m not always sure which various things are possible or not.
 
 
 
: Re: focusing on mobile compatibility. I mainly meant sometimes, at least in the past, designing primarily for mobile, using responsive design (and possibly workarounds) to adjust for desktop browsers created weird scaling issues. In a desktop browser (FF or Chrome) images and/or font size rendered too large (IMO). Or that different site elements were inconsistently scaled on a page. This was on larger, widescreen monitors. It was ~5yr ago when I started learning more about web design, then noticed increasing number of sites with this problem. I never could quite figure out which bits of code were the common denominator. I got in the habit of resizing my browser window just enough to avoid triggering it.
 
 
 
: I hope that was somewhat coherent. I had a thought about the help page, but now it’s slipped my mind. I’m kind of exhausted 😂 I’ll comment later when it comes to me. -- [[User:Bibliophile|Bibliophile]] ([[User talk:Bibliophile|talk]]) 00:44, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: Hey all, is this discussion somewhat finalised? I just want to be clear on what we came out with. --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 22:39, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{Outdent|::}} [[Sandbox]] open for marathon work on the future main page. -- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 22:33, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
=== Sandbox Main Talk ===
 
{{For|the proposal and initial discussion of this|Talk:Main Page#Facelift}}
 
 
 
Hey all! Happy this is happening. Perhaps white space with little black borders around each category would look good? --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 07:21, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
: I was mucking around with the layout at the time you left the above, {{U|His portliness}}, and I had already set 2px bottom borders as an experimental layout before I saw your suggestion. 😊
 
 
 
: My feeling is that the facelift should really move ''away'' from the heavy, boxy styles that typified the ''Early Utilitarian'' design era of the Godwiki to embrace some lighter, more open designs with that use colour highlighting and eschew the entire boxes-in-boxes-in-boxes schema we had with all the early infoboxes and main page design. I removed the enclosing div that did nothing but made the front page boxed in and grey. The yellow colour scheme — especially the khaki colour of the border and underlines — want really intended to be final, so I think we can and should play with that. (I have a Sony fantasy about having the colours of the top box slowly shift from cool to warm to cool as the Godville seasons progress...)
 
 
 
: So, I think all the colours are up for debate and experimentation!
 
 
 
: Next: display: grid vs columns. I think the original choice to use columns was to make an attempt at responsive design in a system which leaves us very few options. I think the display: grid looks good on mobile, but on desktop it creates a ''looooot'' of whitespace... More than I really expect to see. What do others think about that...? -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 18:43, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: The color changing sounds so cool. Basically a gradient from yellows or light blue to purples and back? Like [https://coolors.co/020b36-586ba4-92b6b1-f8f991-f2b36c this] maybe?
 
 
 
:: As for the desktop issue, it isn't terrible. Is there a way to force the layout for desktop to be 3 columns? --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 20:38, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: If we were in a standard web page, we would just have to add a media query in the CSS and everything will be solved. Here, it's another story. Though I do agree the grid with two columns tend to feel empty on fullscreen desktop, it works well on halfscreen desktop and mobile screen. The columns method was the opposite, looking good on both desktop way, but not mobile-screen friendly since some screens were displaying a single column.
 
::: There might be another way to do things like we wish, but we may need to ask ourselves one big question : mobile-first or desktop-first? Ideally, we would optimise for both ; realisticly we may have to make a choice. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 21:09, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::: I did some quick website analytics in the hopes of finding a mobile vs desktop user traffic analysis. Sadly I could not find that info, although I did reach out to the devs. The overall visits per month average to 246684 and average visit duration is 00:06:51. Currently the mobile vs desktop worldwide hovers at 50% since 2017. I think because this is a game, it is safe to assume that there is a large percentage on the app itself with over 500k downloads on the app store which is automatically mobile, plus, of those that go straight to the website (like myself), at least 50% are using mobile. Which means overall mobile would seem to be the larger platform. Does this make sense to anyone?
 
:::: Also, I noticed that on desktop, since there are 12 categories to view (such as artifacts and records), they line up as 7 on one line and 5 on the next. If the 5 would be centered that would be nice, but currently they are aligned to the left and it looks a bit off. Same with the list of 6 main categories like the guidebook. I know that the layout changes based on the size of the window, but perhaps centering can be forced? --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 22:40, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{outdent|::::}} {{tqi|The columns method was the opposite, looking good on both desktop way, but not mobile-screen friendly since some screens were displaying a single column.}} From my testing, that's not an artifact of the <code>columns:</code> technique; the exact same thing happens now on narrow screens with the <code>display: grid</code> approach. It's simply because we're replaced a collection of small items with a collection of large items. Some screens are simply too narrow to fit two of these items side-by-side. The only way to fix that is to make the size of the items smaller. Maybe we can adjust down the <code>font-size</code> until it works well on the narrow screens (iPhone 4-5 screen width is probably the target for our 'small screen' layout, 320px wide).
 
 
 
I don't know <code>display: grid</code> very well, but from what I understand it's powerful and flexible... but in ways we simply don't need (and mostly can't take advantage of without access to the site CSS). Using <code>columns:</code> kinda gives us what we want for free: it automatically chooses the column count in such a way as to keep the content as even as possible. This is actually why there are 12 items in the banner: 12 is kind of a magic number for grids, as it's divisible by 6, 4, 3, and 2. Perhaps there's something technical about <code>display: grid</code> which gives some advantage which isn't obvious to me, but as it stands I advocate for a return to <code>columns: 3</code> or <code>4</code>, and try to adjust the item width so that we get 2 columns on a 320px wide display. Right now, it looks like we're collapsing to 1 column at somewhere around 350px width, we so we probably need to drop our column size by around 10% or so.
 
 
 
{{tqi|one big question : mobile-first or desktop-first?}} No question &mdash; mobile first. The least sophisticated users are most likely to be mobile users using the wiki through the app. Those statistics, {{u|His portliness}}, are they for the Godwiki (wiki.godvillegame.com), or for godvillegame.com, or an accumulaton of both?
 
 
 
{{tqi|the layout changes based on the size of the window, but perhaps centering can be forced?}} Again, this is a strong reason to return to a <code>columns: <var>3 or 4</var> <var>6-8</var>em</code>. No need to centering, we get balanced columns with nice spacing for free.
 
 
 
One last point: though I'm generally a gleeful advocate of all uses of {{tlx|daily choice}}, I think we should reconsider using it for the equipment emoji this way. One of the main reasons to have a pretty image (image ≡ emoji) next to each option is to give people a clear visual aid to find the item they're looking for in the list. We lose that if the icon's different every time the person visits, and risk creating some confusion. (''"If I click that will it lead to the same place as last time?"''). Personally I think we should pick one clear emoji to represent equipment in the list and stick to it. 😊 Thoughts? -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 06:44, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
: {{tqi|Those statistics, {{u|His portliness}}, are they for the Godwiki (wiki.godvillegame.com), or for godvillegame.com, or an accumulaton of both?}} After a quick recheck, they are for all extensions of godvillegame.com. When I tried a check on just wiki.godvillegame.com I got an error that there isn't enough traffic above 10,000 visits a month to give a good estimate. So I guess the wiki gets somewhere in the 10k range... --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 07:11, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: To the devs:
 
:: "We are redoing the wiki main page. Can you let me know if the wiki gets more desktop traffic or more mobile traffic? This would enable us to focus on the larger contingent of users.
 
:: Thanks"
 
 
 
:: Response:
 
:: "Mobile traffic is a bit bigger. However, it's also important not too leave behind people because of their device type or screen size (ideally it should be usable on both mobile and desktop)."
 
 
 
:: --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 21:50, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: Haaaaah, mmmkay, great. I think that {{u|FeRDNYC}} ''ʿalayhi s-salam'' would find that comment from the devs... some mix of hilarious and enraging 😂 The way to achieve what they, and we, think we should be doing, vis. making the Godwiki {{tqi|usable on both mobile and desktop}}, is to update the hell outta everything, start installing some damn extensions, unlock the damn CSS so that it can be made responsive, and enable us who invest so much of our time and energy into this thing to use proper modern web and mediawiki systems.
 
 
 
::: Buuuuut we'll just stick with making the best possible use of the resources we have, rather than moaning about the resources we don't. 😅 -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 12:29, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::: Lol exactly what I responded to the dear devs. I said without access to the CSS at a minimum, we can only do our best. I think if enough of us ask for it they will seriously start considering this. --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 13:55, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
=== New topic on mainpage ===
 
 
 
I reached out to some players in a very unofficial and incomplete sort of survey. Many said they don't use the wiki so much because they never figured out what the heck was going on. Talk pages were foreign to them, they had no idea what they were or how to use them. They weren't sure how to leave comments or how to find and create their own pages. Perhaps a more comprehensive beginner's guide would be a nice thing. The GodWiki guidebook is nice, but it needs a bit more step by step instruction and it's missing a bunch of the important stuff that a first timer would want to know.
 
--[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 23:24, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
: So, first response to this is, [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=Godwiki_Guidebook&action=edit go ahead!]
 
 
 
: Second response: I'm all for making the wiki as welcoming and well-signposted as we possibly can, but there's a horse-to-water element to this. My feeling is that a lot of players don't familiarise themselves with the wiki because they ''just don't care''. I... honestly, I ''don't'' feel like it's actually very hard to get to grips with it, but maybe that's my own bias. However, I will point out that this is exactly ''why'' there was so much text put on the Main Page in the first place, to try to give everyone the biggest chance possible to understand and find resources and help. So, if we prune the Main Page's text and resources down and move them somewhere that's ''less'' obvious and easy to find... what are we achieving...? -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 06:49, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: I appreciate your faith in my writing abilities 😂. I'm not sure that I'm the one for this, since I barely understand the GodWiki myself. I think I'm still close enough to the other side of the fence to be a good critic about what needs explaining. I'll definitely try to put something together though.
 
:: I think having a box on the main page that says "if this is your first time here, click me!" or something along that vein, it wouldn't be less clear at all. --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 07:06, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: The Godwiki Guidebook is currently unneccessary IMO, though it was written by the Devs themselves and it appears in the sidebar, so we can't ignore it sadly. Maybe we could indeed replace said guidebook to a real ultra-dumbed down step-by-step guide.
 
 
 
::: Note: by ultra-dumbed, I don't intend to say that deities are too dumb for current stage of Godwiki but, as I agree with Djonni there, Deities that don't understand how Godwiki are probably not even trying to do things and want us to do it for them. (Yeah I am overreacting I guess).
 
::: I joined the wiki on late 2018, not knowing a single thing on how wikis worked and absolutely no programming knowledge. Trial and error is the best way to learn something, that's what gaming and most of things are about.
 
 
 
:::Nethertheless, we can still try to reach to those people and improve things for them I guess... -- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 12:41, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::: So, I think that between {{u|WardPhoenix}}'s excellent point that the Guidebook, as it currently exists, isn't that useful, and {{u|His portliness}}' observation that a huge <b style="font-family: verdana, "Times New Roman", Times, serif;">"New here? Click me!"</b> somewhere prominent on the main page might be useful... perhaps this thread should graduate to a discussion on [[Talk:Godwiki Guidebook]] about repurposing and rewriting that page to be something we thing might help capture those users...?
 
 
 
:::: The only trouble with this is that writing like that is actually ''super'' hard, and someone's gotta do it... 😅 -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 12:54, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{outdent|::::}} I am ok with trying to give the writing a shot. I copied the text to a local file and will make a rough draft, and then I will repost it to a sandbox for discussion. I know that it would be ideal to do the whole thing on the wiki, but I don't think I will have time to do that type of writing if I can't have access when I am away from wifi.
 
 
 
[[User:Djonni|Djonni]], feel free to move this discussion to the talkpage for the guidebook, I just don't know how. Maybe I'll write a giude on how to move it 😂. --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 19:20, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
=== Color scheme ===
 
 
 
I think a color gradient (perhaps that is "style = linear-gradient|bottom"?) would look nice on the page. Maybe a bold modern color fading out. (You can see an example of this on the talkheader) Thoughts? <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/His portliness|contribs]]) 29 November 2020‎</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
 
 
 
: Hmm, across the whole page...? Or on the top box? We've been using simple gradients more and more in the various hatnote templates to try to make them a little more aesthetic than the block colours that they were before. Too many gradients in one page can be quite distracting if not done well though, so it's one of those "use wisely" CSS features. 😊
 
 
 
: I had mentioned, somewhere... oh right, just up in [[#Main Page Facelift 2020]], the idea of {{tqi|having the colours of the top box slowly shift from cool to warm to cool as the Godville seasons progress}}. That's certainly not incompatible with a gradient. I thought I should mock up the kind of thing I had in mind to make it clearer what that could look like.
 
 
 
: So, with four seasons, I imagine the colours slowly shifting through shades between four colour points, each colour being strongest mid-season. I had thought (but am open to alternatives) that broadly speaking, Winter would be blue, Spring would be orange (tough that transition may be strange), Summer would be green, Autumn would be red. (As an Australian living in the Northern Hemisphere, I'm painfully aware that the Godville seasons cycle in opposition to the Souther Hemisphere's seasons, but ''c'est la vie''.)
 
 
 
: So, with plenty of room for tweaking and changes, I imagine the key frames of the colour schemes to be something like this. Winter, peaking on Day <code>0</code>, with a highlight color of <code>rgb(50, 160, 220)</code>:
 
 
 
<div style="text-align: center; margin: 0.1rem; padding: 2px; background-color: rgba(50, 160, 220, 0.3); border: 1px solid rgba(50, 160, 220, 1);">
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; font-size: 130%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(50, 160, 220, 1);">Gameplay</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0.1rem 0.3rem;  line-height: 260%; font-size: 130%; white-space: nowrap; columns: 4 6em; column-gap: 1em;;>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(50, 160, 220, 1);">[[:Category:Gameplay|🎲 Mechanics]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(50, 160, 220, 1);">[[List of Monsters|👹 Monsters]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(50, 160, 220, 1);">[[Pets|🐾 Pets]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(50, 160, 220, 1);">[[List of Artifacts|💎 Artifacts]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(50, 160, 220, 1);">[[List of Quests|📘 Quests]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(50, 160, 220, 1);">[[List of Equipment|{{Daily choice|🗡️|🛡️|🧢|👕|💪|👖|🍀}} Equipment]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(50, 160, 220, 1);">[[Aura|✨ Auras]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(50, 160, 220, 1);">[[List of Skills|🤸 Skills]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(50, 160, 220, 1);">[[:Category:Geography|⛰️ Geography]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(50, 160, 220, 1);">[[Omnibus List|♾️ Omnibus]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(50, 160, 220, 1);">[[History|📜 History]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(50, 160, 220, 1);">[[Hall of records|🏅 Records]]</div>
 
</div></div>
 
 
 
: Next, Spring, peaking on day <code>365/4</code>, with a highlight color of <code>rgb(235, 160, 15)</code>:
 
 
 
<div style="text-align: center; margin: 0.1rem; padding: 2px; background-color: rgba(235, 160, 15, 0.3); border: 1px solid rgba(235, 160, 15, 1);">
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; font-size: 130%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(235, 160, 15, 1);">Gameplay</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0.1rem 0.3rem;  line-height: 260%; font-size: 130%; white-space: nowrap; columns: 4 6em; column-gap: 1em;;>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(235, 160, 15, 1);">[[:Category:Gameplay|🎲 Mechanics]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(235, 160, 15, 1);">[[List of Monsters|👹 Monsters]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(235, 160, 15, 1);">[[Pets|🐾 Pets]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(235, 160, 15, 1);">[[List of Artifacts|💎 Artifacts]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(235, 160, 15, 1);">[[List of Quests|📘 Quests]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(235, 160, 15, 1);">[[List of Equipment|{{Daily choice|🗡️|🛡️|🧢|👕|💪|👖|🍀}} Equipment]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(235, 160, 15, 1);">[[Aura|✨ Auras]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(235, 160, 15, 1);">[[List of Skills|🤸 Skills]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(235, 160, 15, 1);">[[:Category:Geography|⛰️ Geography]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(235, 160, 15, 1);">[[Omnibus List|♾️ Omnibus]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(235, 160, 15, 1);">[[History|📜 History]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(235, 160, 15, 1);">[[Hall of records|🏅 Records]]</div>
 
</div></div>
 
 
 
: Summer, peaking on day <code>365/2</code>, with a highlight color of <code>rgb(50, 160, 60)</code>:
 
 
 
<div style="text-align: center; margin: 0.1rem; padding: 2px; background-color: rgba(50, 160, 60, 0.3); border: 1px solid rgba(50, 160, 60, 1);">
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; font-size: 130%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(50, 160, 60, 1);">Gameplay</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0.1rem 0.3rem;  line-height: 260%; font-size: 130%; white-space: nowrap; columns: 4 6em; column-gap: 1em;;>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(50, 160, 60, 1);">[[:Category:Gameplay|🎲 Mechanics]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(50, 160, 60, 1);">[[List of Monsters|👹 Monsters]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(50, 160, 60, 1);">[[Pets|🐾 Pets]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(50, 160, 60, 1);">[[List of Artifacts|💎 Artifacts]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(50, 160, 60, 1);">[[List of Quests|📘 Quests]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(50, 160, 60, 1);">[[List of Equipment|{{Daily choice|🗡️|🛡️|🧢|👕|💪|👖|🍀}} Equipment]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(50, 160, 60, 1);">[[Aura|✨ Auras]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(50, 160, 60, 1);">[[List of Skills|🤸 Skills]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(50, 160, 60, 1);">[[:Category:Geography|⛰️ Geography]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(50, 160, 60, 1);">[[Omnibus List|♾️ Omnibus]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(50, 160, 60, 1);">[[History|📜 History]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(50, 160, 60, 1);">[[Hall of records|🏅 Records]]</div>
 
</div></div>
 
 
 
: Autumn, peaking on day <code>365*3/4</code>, with a highlight color of <code>rgb(235, 90, 60)</code>:
 
 
 
<div style="text-align: center; margin: 0.1rem; padding: 2px; background-color: rgba(235, 90, 60, 0.3); border: 1px solid rgba(235, 90, 60, 1);">
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; font-size: 130%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(235, 90, 60, 1);">Gameplay</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0.1rem 0.3rem;  line-height: 260%; font-size: 130%; white-space: nowrap; columns: 4 6em; column-gap: 1em;;>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(235, 90, 60, 1);">[[:Category:Gameplay|🎲 Mechanics]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(235, 90, 60, 1);">[[List of Monsters|👹 Monsters]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(235, 90, 60, 1);">[[Pets|🐾 Pets]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(235, 90, 60, 1);">[[List of Artifacts|💎 Artifacts]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(235, 90, 60, 1);">[[List of Quests|📘 Quests]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(235, 90, 60, 1);">[[List of Equipment|{{Daily choice|🗡️|🛡️|🧢|👕|💪|👖|🍀}} Equipment]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(235, 90, 60, 1);">[[Aura|✨ Auras]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(235, 90, 60, 1);">[[List of Skills|🤸 Skills]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(235, 90, 60, 1);">[[:Category:Geography|⛰️ Geography]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(235, 90, 60, 1);">[[Omnibus List|♾️ Omnibus]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(235, 90, 60, 1);">[[History|📜 History]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(235, 90, 60, 1);">[[Hall of records|🏅 Records]]</div>
 
</div></div>
 
 
 
:Obviously, in between these peak days, the colors would be in transition between those shown above. At the change of seasons from winter's blue to spring's orange, or day <code>365/8</code>, for example, the color would actually end up being a surprisingly nice earthy green color:
 
 
 
<div style="text-align: center; margin: 0.1rem; padding: 2px; background-color: rgba(142, 160, 117, 0.3); border: 1px solid rgba(142, 160, 117, 1);">
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; font-size: 130%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(142, 160, 117, 1);">Gameplay</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0.1rem 0.3rem;  line-height: 260%; font-size: 130%; white-space: nowrap; columns: 4 6em; column-gap: 1em;;>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(142, 160, 117, 1);">[[:Category:Gameplay|🎲 Mechanics]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(142, 160, 117, 1);">[[List of Monsters|👹 Monsters]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(142, 160, 117, 1);">[[Pets|🐾 Pets]]</div>
 
<div style="margin: 0 auto; min-width: 8em; width: 80%; border-bottom: 2px solid rgba(142, 160, 117, 1);">[[List of Artifacts|💎 Artifacts]]</div>
 
</div></div>
 
 
 
: Now, doing all the math is fine, it's just a matter of some clever [[mediawikiwiki:Help:Extension:ParserFunctions|parser functions]], but doing it ''elegantly'' and in a way that someone reading the code might stand a chance of understanding, well... I'm still gnawing on that. And I'm definitely not so attached to this idea that I can't throw it out if we think it's a terrible (or ugly) idea. Just thought I'd do some mock-ups for us all to consider. 😊 -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 15:02, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: Edit: the original Autumn colour, <code>rgb(235, 75, 60)</code> seemed a little pinker than I liked, so I adjusted it to a slightly oranger red. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 16:41, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: As I said the first time you mentioned the idea, I love it. I just like gradients, but I am not terribly attached to the idea. The colors you chose are good. I think we should implement the idea as you have it and hold off on the gradient. It would look messy if it was separate in every box. Perhaps there can be a backgrounds color over the whole page? Maybe that would be nice with a gradient, something that starts off strong and ends light. --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 22:00, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
=== Color block changes and flex-flow reflow ===
 
 
 
This post refers to [[Special:PermanentLink/124168|this draft revision]].
 
 
 
So, I had an idea about the flat colour blocks, trying to think a little about {{u|His portliness}}' suggestion of trying some colour gradients. I'm sure this isn't what he had in mind, but I realised that the colours that were chosen for the blocks in the long-ago just happen to line up quite well with the desktop Godville color themes.
 
 
 
So I went back to {{tlx|Diary}} and reimplemented those themes that were taken out when it was rewritten and modernised (perfectly reasonable decision at the time, they weren't used) and then replaced the flat color blocks with the corresponding diary styles. I've also reflowed the flex box layout so that it may be a little more intuitive: main, large boxes make up the left column, small narrow boxes the right, and on narrower displays they will collapse to a single column.
 
 
 
There's plenty of tweaking to be done, especially around the <code>flex:</code> parameters (relative column widths, how narrow it can be without collapsing to a single column, etc), along with padding between the blocks. This also is purely addressing layout, not the content in the boxes; the text still needs editing, and I still consider the ''Random Image'' box in particular to be pretty disposable, especially if someone can come up with something better to go in there. (Perhaps moving some of what's currently in ''Welcome to the Godwiki'' to the fourth box might improve both?)
 
 
 
Also, as always, feel free to hate my idea, so long as you express yourself constructively! 😁 -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 09:15, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
: I do like the idea of using {{tlx|Diary}}, looks neat.
 
I do wonder though if alongside the random image, the introduction could also be removed.
 
: All it's content is currently within the main banner, whose top introduction text could be tweaked to act as a replacement for the whole current and too long introduction -- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 22:50, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
=== Content of the page ===
 
 
 
Did you ({u|WardPhoenix}) add the test templates to the mainpage just to balance out the columns? If yes, maybe we can find something a bit more relevant? --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 02:39, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
 
: Belated answer here as it can be useful for everyone woking on the page to know the answer!
 
: Half yes and half no. I wanted to balance it, but I also do think Tests templates could have their place on that section. After all, testing them is a contribution.
 
: I can understand that it could be too difficult for newcomers to understand how the whole thing works though.
 
: Then, the sandbox is free for anyone to edit, so if you (or anyone reading) have a better idea to place there or do think that link doesn't belong to that page, be bold and edit it 😉 -- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 22:45, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
 
:: I would suggest putting [[Help:Requests|Ask For Help]]. That probably belongs there more, and we can find something else for the GodWiki universe section. --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 01:35, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
=== The emojis ===
 
 
 
Godville adds emojis to the mainpage every holiday season. Will those be an issue with the ones that were added in on the sandbox version? --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 17:44, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
: No, the emoji change on the main page bullet list is actually due to this code including the {{tlx|Navbox list/Bullet}} template (which was made by {{u|Djonni}}).
 
:<code><nowiki>{{#ifeq: {{Navbox list/Bullet|bare}}|{{Navbox list/Bullet|default}}||list-style-image: none; list-style-type: '{{Navbox list/Bullet|bare}}'}}"></nowiki></code>.
 
 
 
: This was removed from current sandbox page which is why, as you can see, the emoji currently used doesn't change. -- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 17:59, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
 
 
=== First Feedbacks ===
 
 
 
I have now stumbled upon this and have seen that the random image is to be removed and want to say that I like seeing random images dredged up from all uploaded images to the GodWiki and think that it should stay. Also, the underlining of the links at the top doesn’t format well on my (iPhone 5S) screen, with all of them sticking outside the boxes and I thought the diary-style boxes were good.  —[[User:Holy Spirit of Hell|Holy Spirit of Hell]] ([[User talk:Holy Spirit of Hell|talk]]) 13:52, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
: Thanks for feeeback 🤗. Put back the random image. As per the underlining (I guess we are talking about the yellow lines between each links), does that happens to you on every web navigator? -- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 11:21, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: Agreed! The random images is great for finding pictures that should be deleted 😂. --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 19:07, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{outdent|::}} Here some feedback I got from Godville's discord one weeks ago, thanks to those who gave one :
 
 
 
{{diary|title = {{u|Wawajabba}} | text = That looks looks pretty great!}}
 
{{diary|title = {{u|Hairplug4men}} | text = I like the emojis. I don't like the smaller box titles. I'm okay with them being centered, but us old people with poor eyesight could use bigger text. And making things collapsible was a nice touch. I always like when things are collapsible even if I never collapse them}}
 
{{diary|title = {{u|Crisismana}} | text = They look neat, except the text that crossing border over there ("Missing pictures" crossing border on mobile view)}}
 
 
 
The title's size issue HP4M raise up was fixed by adding a variable in the {{tlx|diary}} template and said variable applied on the page. The text crossing border, as Crisismana noticed, was fixed by adding overflow rules which cut the overflowing text and replace it by three dots. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 22:01, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
 
 
=== Feedback on new Main Page ===
 
 
 
Hi! Just want to leave some feedback on the new Main Page. First of all, I really like how more modern it looks than the previous one. There's just a few formatting/layouting issues I've noticed on mobile. I have some screenshots so I hope they will help.
 
* Some long text get cut off. This isn't really a deal breaker for me because I know what it's supposed to say. But it may be an issue to newcomers. https://prnt.sc/zhj5cy
 
* It would also be nice if the icons are more align. Again, not a real deal breaker. Just a minor nitpick.(Please see screenshot above.)
 
* Some layout/alignment issue on the collapse/expand button. This is probably an easy fix with an additional div or something. https://prnt.sc/zhj0f5
 
I could try to fix the last one but I'm on mobile right now and I'm about to go to sleep. I've been looking at the sandbox before on desktop and it looked great. Will try to see how the deployed Main Page actually looks like when I'm back on desktop tomorrow.
 
Again, great job to everyone who developed this.
 
-- [[User:Zoombie|Zoombie]] ([[User talk:Zoombie|talk]]) 15:11, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
:{{tqb|* Some long text get cut off. This isn't really a deal breaker for me because I know what it's supposed to say. But it may be an issue to newcomers. https://prnt.sc/zhj5cy}}
 
: This was actually a deliberate attempt at fixing another issue : having the text overflow over the border. I personally didn't find a better solution than the ellipsis on small screen, but others might.
 
 
 
:As for the others, I am unsure this would be actually fixable, but as said above, others might find solutions where I didn't --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 19:49, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: Adding in a random comment, but the section topic was created do I'm gonna use it :)
 
:: I think it would be an easier navigation if all sections started collapsed instead of expanded. That way people can see all the options and choose what they want to see, instead of scrolling through a bunch of stuff. This only holds true for mobile. If anyone has a issue with this please let me know, as I plan on changing it in a few days. --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 23:11, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: I apologize if I overstepped any boundaries in my haste to contribute and sounded rude and condescending above. I might have been too hasty last night and neglected to check the Sandbox and the talk pages before giving my feedback.
 
::: I did some more investigating/testing with my mobile in landscape. Some interesting stuff happens in the collapsibles. Dunno if anyone else has seen this but I'm dropping them here just in case anyone is interested. It's not really a big deal since most people on mobile would probably look at GodWiki in the app. And I dunno if anyone would collapse sections on a wider screen.
 
:::*[https://prnt.sc/zj7qn1 Default open state]
 
:::*[https://prnt.sc/zj7rnt Left section collapsed] Both sections get stretched.
 
:::*[https://prnt.sc/zj7sj5 Right section collapsed] Both sections get shortened.
 
:::*[https://prnt.sc/zj7tax Both sections collapsed]
 
:::This also somewhat happens on desktop but again, I don't think anyone would be collapsing stuff on wide screens so it might be okay to leave it alone. Plus it's just some really really minor thing that I don't why I'm so hung up about. >_< -- [[User:Zoombie|Zoombie]] ([[User talk:Zoombie|talk]]) 00:25, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 
:::{{tqb|* Some layout/alignment issue on the collapse/expand button. This is probably an easy fix with an additional div or something. https://prnt.sc/zhj0f5}}
 
::: Fixed this one. Added some manual line breaks between the div and the content to force the content one line below and stop it from overlapping with the collapse/expand button. I only did the last two sections (Did you know... and Random Image). Let me know if I accidentally broke anything in the process. https://prnt.sc/zjdyan -- [[User:Zoombie|Zoombie]] ([[User talk:Zoombie|talk]]) 01:07, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{outdent|:::}} I followed the redesigning of the Main Page right from the beginning, and I'm glad to see it finally up and running! I like everything about it except the colours, well actually just one colour. Can we change that yellow to some other colour, please?
 
 
 
{{tqb|* I think it would be an easier navigation if all sections started collapsed instead of expanded. That way people can see all the options and choose what they want to see, instead of scrolling through a bunch of stuff.}}
 
 
 
Yes to this, [[User:His portliness|His portliness]]! It dramatically shortens the page, and it actually gives it a cleaner look as well.
 
 
 
I just want to say a sincere and warm thank you to everyone who was involved in the redesigning of the Main Page. The time and dedication that you put into it is greatly appreciated and noticed by many, including me. At times, maintaining the Godwiki can seem like a thankless job, but for the people who use it, people like me, we are very grateful that all of you exist to do this. So again, thank you so much everyone. Please continue the excellent work! 😊 -- [[User:Lakefire Arrow|Lakefire Arrow]] ([[User talk:Lakefire Arrow|talk]]) 05:42, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
: [[User:Zoombie|Zoombie]] you didn't overstep anything. Trust me when I say that everyone here is just ecstatic that a new voice showed up that is interested. And you actually did work! Hallelujah 🎉🎉. Thanks for contributing, it's nice to have more people here. --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 06:54, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: I was about to say the exact same thing, but the great mind above was faster 😅. Thanks for finding a way to fix the placement of the collapse button!
 
:: As for the collapse themselves, I was personally worried that having everything collapsed would augment the chance of people missing the content, but if you guys thinks it's not an issue, well that's an easy fix.
 
:: {{tqb|Can we change that yellow to some other colour, please? }} Well I guess that color was chosen to avoid something grey or similar to other colours used on the page, but if you have suggestion for colours feel free to say (or test). -- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 07:04, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: lol I wss in middle of typing out what [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] just said for me 😛
 
 
 
::: I applied the collapsed element to the last three tables and left the intro open because if that exact fear that people would miss it. What do y'all think? --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]])
 
 
 
{{outdent|:::}} Thanks, [[User:His portliness|His portliness]] and [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]]! I guess I was way too worried about things. Haha. 😅
 
 
 
I've been self-studying front end dev these past few months so I'm a bit obsessed about getting things to layout and format properly. The limitations this wiki presents is a welcome challenge although it can be a bit maddening at times. If there's anything I've learned the past few months, it's that different devices give different results for the same lines of code. So I got screenshots of the new collapsed sections edit for everyone's perusal. [https://prnt.sc/zks3ty Mobile] [https://prnt.sc/zkrq90 Desktop] That's how it currently looks on my screens. -- [[User:Zoombie|Zoombie]] ([[User talk:Zoombie|talk]]) 08:21, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
: Going to have to dissent on the new page layout, unfortunately. There's just too much empty space in the new header block, & by extension it's just too large. On desktop I've gone from [https://imgur.com/8Kx0z0n this] to [https://imgur.com/ED96s4k this]. In the mobile app it's even more noticable, but I don't seem to be able to get the mobile version to show a previous edit state to compare & contrast. -- [[User:S624|S624]] ([[User talk:S624|talk]]) 20:46, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: Hi {{u|S624}} long time no see here 😄. I'd like to hear more about your opinion, thinking it's too large is one thing but I'd personnally genuily (or however it is written) like to know why it is a cons for you, and if you think precise things should me either removed or adjusted (This is probably more fixing that making the whole interface again).
 
:: I like to think that making larger made the header more obvious to read, especially for people who have eyesight issues. Though i hesitated to reduce the 2 paragraph before the columns because well, they are kinda redundant, but they are almost legacy. -- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 22:27, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: That is a very interesting point {{u|S624}}. What do you think about those being collapsible? That would make the space less noticeable until you actually needed one of those sections. Personally, I'm ok with the extra space. White space isn't a detractor to me. But if it bothers ppl, and I'm sure you aren't the only one, this might be a solution. As {{u|WardPhoenix}} pointed out, the new version is far more legible and navigable, besides the nicer look.
 
 
 
::: The real issue to me was the horrible outdated look of the old version, and personally I disliked it immensely. --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 22:32, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{outdent|:::}} Putting in my two cents. As [[User:S624|S624]] pointed out, the new layout does take a lot more space than before. It looks smoother and less cluttered for me though so I kinda like it. I understand that it's for making things more legible and noticeable but I think it's a bit too large. Some possible solutions I can think of right now:
 
* Make the text a bit smaller. It's at 130% right now. Would making it 120% or 110% be better?
 
* Fix the dimensions of the div containers the Categories are in so that there's less space between the text+icons and the borders. Not too much because we don't want them to be too close together. That would make things hard to read. But I think we still have a lot of space to wiggle around right now.
 
Collapsing the top part doesn't feel like a good idea. It's probably the most used part (I mean, I use it mostly for crossword to get to the categories on mobile and I'm pretty sure a lot of others do so to.) so collapsing it would just add an extra step for people to get to where they want to go.
 
 
 
Re: the collapsed sections on the lower part.
 
 
 
After thinking about this for a day, I think we shouldn't collapse '''Featured Article'''. It looks weird and unbalanced on desktop seeing a large blank space on one side. (Please see my screenshot above) Plus, if I'm not mistaken, the goal of the '''Featured Article''' is to show people the kinds of article that are present in GodWiki to give them a sense of the writing style in the wiki and what they can write.
 
 
 
I have mixed feelings on collapsing '''Did You Know...'''. Again, if I'm not mistaken, the goal of that section is to show people what other things they can do and what other information are present. So it seems important to show them. But, I don't really care all that much for it that I don't really mind having it collapsed by default. I don't really care about the '''Random Image''' section to have an opinion about it. 😅 But if we're going to collapse the '''Random Image''' section, we're going to have to collapse the '''Did You Know...''' section just to provide balance on the layout in desktop. -- [[User:Zoombie|Zoombie]] ([[User talk:Zoombie|talk]]) 05:23, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
: Ouch! I should have checked desktop before implementing that. An unbalanced look is disconcerting.
 
 
 
: Can we get a vote on opening featured vs collapsing the intro to GodWiki?
 
 
 
:: To be fair, I first thought we could collapse it since I don't think anyone actually read it, probably because there is too much to read. But on the other hand it's sad to have featured article collapsed (even though, I don't think many people read it either).
 
:: It might be better to have all 4 tabs uncollapsed to leave the choice of collapsing them or not when coming accros it (there is still the collapse button -- which can be renamed by the way).
 
:: Let's hear others opinion on that. -- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 08:28, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: Quick question before I respond later on reasons for not liking the new layout: what's the easiest way I can see a what the old front page looked like in the app without having to revert the change for everybody temporarily? -- [[User:S624|S624]] ([[User talk:S624|talk]]) 08:36, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{Outdent|:::}} Same way as dektop, but when you are on the old front page go at bottom : there is a mobile view button. Just click on it and reduce the size of your window and voilà. -- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 08:53, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
: Thanks [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]], but I'm not sure exactly what you mean. On the desktop version (including using the desktop skin in the app), I can go to the history, click on an edit time & see the actual page layout as it was then. Clicking on the mobile skin option then loads the current page as it is now.
 
 
 
: On the mobile version, going to a historical edit only shows the changes made, & doesn't seem to have any option to show the page as it was. -- [[User:S624|S624]] ([[User talk:S624|talk]]) 09:18, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: Oh, by same way as desktop I meant you have do it on your desktop support (where you can see mobile view as well). Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 10:27, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: [https://web.archive.org/web/20201112030923/https://wiki.godvillegame.com/Main_Page Here] is a link to the old version of the Main Page.
 
 
 
::: The main difference besides the obvious layout and coloring stuff, is that the fonts are now much bigger with tons of white space around them. If we minimize the white space and make the font more comparable to the size, that would probably alleviate some of the issue. --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 12:34, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: I know this was probably a stupid way to do this, but I dumped the main page on my user talk page [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/User_talk:His_portliness here] and you can see the changes I was reffering to. Does this solve the issue {{u|S624}}? Also, anyone feel free to mess with the code there! --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 13:04, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{outdent|:::}}  I checked both via app and via browser but I don't think there's a way to check the previous versions of a page via mobile, [[User:S624|S624]]. I think what [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] was saying is a method to simulate the mobile view via desktop.
 
 
 
Re: layout changes. I think it would be more prudent to wait a few more days for more opinions before making changes again. Some people are just finding out that the Main Page has changed. I'm also under the impression that leaving the new layout in a sandbox somehow makes people more reluctant to share their opinion about it.
 
 
 
Also, I'd like to bring up something tangentially related. That is, making the rest of the site consistent with the Main Page layout / making the layout of the whole site uniform. As it is, the Main Page is glaringly different from the rest of the site. This is not an immediate concern as we haven't really even finalized things in the Main Page 😅 but I think it's something that should be considered in the future. -- [[User:Zoombie|Zoombie]] ([[User talk:Zoombie|talk]]) 13:13, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
: {{u|His portliness}} mate you could have just edit the [[Sandbox]] page, this is what it exist for 😂. Anyway, your changes makes the header a little smaller (though it breaks a little on mobile, but that just adjustement). But I don't think that resolves the too much space issue, but again that's fixable.
 
: Though I do agree with {{u|Zoombie}}, it's urgent to be cautious. And as he noted, people don't usually give their opinion unless it affects them, if they give one at all (which makes getting feedback on Godwiki very difficult and frustrating). Let's see if some otherd give their full opinion before doing hasty changes. -- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 13:21, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
I disagree with collapsing everything by default — it adds an extra click unnecessarily should I want to read anything in the boxes, which I think kind of defeats the purpose of the FA and the DYK and heck, even the random image, which seems to me to be things you scroll across and read from interest, not something explicitly sought out. —[[User:Holy Spirit of Hell|Holy Spirit of Hell]] ([[User talk:Holy Spirit of Hell|talk]]) 14:03, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
: Agree with [[User:Holy Spirit of Hell|Holy Spirit of Hell]], the collapsed boxes should be open by default. Also, the comment from [[User:Zoombie|Zoombie]] on matching the formatting of the rest of the GW was one of the things I didn't like about the new front page - the yellowish colour background was pretty jarring. The latest sandbox edit by [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] with a plain background looks much better.
 
 
 
: Thanks also for the attempts to show the historic front page in a mobile view as well. -- [[User:S624|S624]] ([[User talk:S624|talk]]) 18:27, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: Thanks for the feedback! The edits I did, though not professional at all, did make the entire top section significantly shorter on desktop. That was my goal. Someone with experience in the choosing will have to fix the whitespace issue. Sadly we can't format separate for mobile and desktop. Also, by making the font smaller, none of the words get cut off.
 
 
 
:: Can someone suggest a color they would like better than yellow? The plain background makes the wiki look old in my opinion.
 
 
 
:: I will undo the collapse for now, it seems that it was better open according to popular opinion! --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 18:42, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: Hello, everyone! I've been playing around with some color options. (Special thanks to [[User:His portliness|His portliness]] for opening his talk page for use.) The [https://prnt.sc/zyi6z1 white one] looks good but in case anyone wants more options, here's what I got so far: [https://prnt.sc/zupkfz Some blue-ish tint. You can see this in the Sandbox right now.] and [https://prnt.sc/zups0h Some gray-ish tint. The same one that's used in the sidebar that you can see on desktop.] I tried to keep the colors as close to the site as possible so that it's not a sudden change. Let me know of your thoughts. 😊 -- [[User:Zoombie|Zoombie]] ([[User talk:Zoombie|talk]]) 12:47, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
 
:::: Popping in to comment on the color issue. I only just realized this makeover was happening, and this seemed the easiest place to jump in.
 
 
 
:::: I'll start off by saying that I'm not fond of most colored (even lightly tinted) backgrounds behind text. First, it usually reminds me of horridly colored Geocities websites from the late 1990s. More importantly, I find it distracting and more difficult to read whatever content is on screen. I also have chronic migraines and certain color combinations or color contrasts can be a trigger. In general, I prefer more clean, minimalist looks. White space is my friend 😉
 
 
 
:::: That said, I rather liked the grayish-tint. It is very subtle, but does add a touch of color if people really don't want plain white. White is totally fine with me, though.
 
 
 
:::: I don't the like bluish tint at all. It's almost more greenish than blue on my screen, as an aside. It isn't visually appealing to me—something about the contrast against the black text and the brighter blue of the links. I can't explain it. Plus, it makes my eyes physically start to ache. Not kidding. I actually prefer the infamous yellow over the bluish one.
 
 
 
:::: Overall, the white or grayish-tint options get my vote 😊 --[[User:Bibliophile|Bibliophile]] ([[User talk:Bibliophile|talk]]) 18:41, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{outdent|::::}} Thanks for the feedback, [[User:Bibliophile|Bibliophile]]! Someone in the forums also vote for white or gray so I guess the color options is down to those two now.
 
 
 
Btw, this is off-topic but I got some news I'd like to share with everyone. I sent a bug report about nested collapsible toggles which might be fixed by updating the current version of MediaWiki (1.31.6) that GW is using and added that that version is nearing end-of-life. The devs replied that they plan to update GW to the next LTS (1.35.x) some time in the future. I don't know how much this update will affect GW so I'm putting this here to notify everyone more experienced than me. On a side note, VisualEditor is bundled with version 1.35.x so fingers crossed that it will be implemented as well when GW is updated. More info on MediaWiki versions [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Version_lifecycle here].-- [[User:Zoombie|Zoombie]] ([[User talk:Zoombie|talk]]) 06:49, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
: Booyah! This calls for much celebration!
 
 
 
: [[User:Bibliophile|Bibliophile]] do the less intense slightly darker colors also hurt your eyes?  --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 12:01, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: Are you referring to specific examples, or in general? I wasn't quite sure which you meant. If you had specific examples in mind, just tell me where to look (or where I overlooked 😊). I don't have a color problem with the vast majority of websites I come across to put it that way. The colors shown in the [[Talk:Sandbox#Color_scheme]] thread or colors in the [[Omnibus List]] sections don't bother my eyes, for example.
 
:: A background color on the Main Page top "menu section" is tricky situation, IMO, because there are all the colored emojis along with the blue/purple links. It isn't just black text. Plus, each of the collapsible diary boxes have a different color. Adding yet another background color to the top menu box can easily become visual overload. Thus, my preference for unobtrusive white or light gray. --[[User:Bibliophile|Bibliophile]] ([[User talk:Bibliophile|talk]]) 09:23, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
:: {{tqb|Someone in the forums also vote for white or gray so I guess the color options is down to those two now.}} {{u|S624}} liked the white version earlier in this thread (though it was before grey one was out), and I'd personally vote for the white one (looks better in mobile view imo). We could also implement a slight reduction of the font-size like {{u|His portliness}} did (if it wasn't push on main page already).
 
:: As for the wiki update well, we'll see when it happens. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 19:27, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{outdent|::}}
 
At this point, I'm open to any of the colours that have been suggested. From reading what people have written, it seems that gray would be the first choice. So, can it be implemented soon? I just want to see that horrid yellow gone. -- [[User:Lakefire Arrow|Lakefire Arrow]] ([[User talk:Lakefire Arrow|talk]]) 03:47, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
:I play GV only on my phone. Before this, those divider lines weren't even noticeable. Now they are too prominent (the black just contrasts too sharply against the white background), and they extend beyond the screen! But if I change the phone to landscape view, then everything's okay. So the problem's in portrait view. Can the problem be fixed? -- [[User:Lakefire Arrow|Lakefire Arrow]] ([[User talk:Lakefire Arrow|talk]]) 18:30, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: Colors is technically easy to fix, though I need to guess where they "extend beyond" since I don't have the issue (don't forget, when bug reporting or feedbacking, one can '''never''' be too precise). Contribution section I guess but confirmation would be nice ^^ --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 19:20, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{outdent|::}} Thank you for getting rid of the yellow background! I'm viewing it on my phone (in the browser), and it looks much better to me. 😊 One issue, though, is that the first diary box comes up flush against the bottom of the last line of links. Is adding a line of white space between them feasible? Or would that screw up a bunch of other things? It's not a huge deal, but figured I'd ask. --[[User:Bibliophile|Bibliophile]] ([[User talk:Bibliophile|talk]]) 20:17, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
: Added a margin-top, should do the trick. [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 22:06, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
::  👍🏼 Yes, that looks much better. Thanks! --[[User:Bibliophile|Bibliophile]] ([[User talk:Bibliophile|talk]]) 19:46, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{outdent|:}} I just took a closer look at the Main Page on my phone. And it seems that the links beneath "Gameplay", "Your Contributions..." and "Godwiki Universe" have shifted slightly more to the right. The rest of the page though is centered perfectly. Can those links be shifted slightly to the left, or would that mess things up?
 
 
 
And I like the new gray lines, so much more better! -- [[User:Lakefire Arrow|Lakefire Arrow]] ([[User talk:Lakefire Arrow|talk]]) 06:24, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
: {{tqb|shifted slightly more to the right}} Technically, it's probably not difficult to change. The issue is that, I don't have that kind of issue so I have no idea what you exactly mean. Could you either provide a screenshot (via imgur or alike) or give details about what web navigator you use on your phone? -- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 08:10, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: Here's what it looks like on my phone: https://postimg.cc/21kNwRPy
 
 
 
:: And I view Godwiki through the Godville app web browser. I rarely open Godwiki on an outside web browser. Do you think it can be fixed?
 
 
 
:: Here's another thing that I just noticed. When you click on any of the links like Monsters, Omnibus, etc, this is what it looks like: https://postimg.cc/sGP0pgzT
 
 
 
:: Is the emoji meant to be part of the link? If so, then I guess that's not something to fix then. -- [[User:Lakefire Arrow|Lakefire Arrow]] ([[User talk:Lakefire Arrow|talk]]) 14:59, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: Yikes!. This seems to happen to wider phone screens (> 425px for those who want to know). We can fix the layout of the buttons by reducing the min-width from 8em to 7em. That should stop them from overflowing the screens and give enough gaps/space in between. (Laying out these things as notes in case this messes up the layout and someone needs to clean up after me. Having access to CSS and @media would really make these things easier.)
 
 
 
::: {{tqb|Is the emoji meant to be part of the link?}} Yep. The icons/emojis are part of the link. But we can easily take them out. I think. -- [[User:Zoombie|Zoombie]] ([[User talk:Zoombie|talk]]) 15:12, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: Making another note that upon checking mobile view via DevTools, 'Editing Manual' and 'Test Templates' continue to overlap. (See screenshots [https://prnt.sc/106qh4b at 320px width (Mobile S)] [https://prnt.sc/106qp0e at 375px width (Mobile M)][https://prnt.sc/106qdv8 at 425px width (Mobile L)].) Note that it may look different on actual phone screens. I'm thinking maybe shortening both to 'Manual' and 'Testing' respectively but it might cause some confusion. Otherwise, we're back to hiding overflows and using ellipsis. Thoughts on this, anyone? For reference, here's what they'll look like with just 'Manual' and 'Testing': https://prnt.sc/106qt38 -- [[User:Zoombie|Zoombie]] ([[User talk:Zoombie|talk]]) 15:35, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::: Yay, everything's fixed! Love the new layout even more now! -- [[User:Lakefire Arrow|Lakefire Arrow]] ([[User talk:Lakefire Arrow|talk]]) 15:33, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{outdent|::::}} {{tqb|I'm thinking maybe shortening both to 'Manual' and 'Testing' respectively but it might cause some confusion.}} Likely yes. Maybe the Creators Manual can be shortened to Edit Manual instead and then switch the Test Templates place with either Guidelines or Rules to avoid clipping issues? --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 17:12, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
=== Moving sections ===
 
 
 
It was pointed out [[Talk:Godwiki Guidebook/sandbox|here]] that for some reason people have a difficult time finding help with the wiki. Is it s good idea to put the "Your contributions are welcome!" stuff before the "gameplay" links? Will that help? --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 00:49, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
: I don't think that's a good move. The primary reason people come to the wiki is for the Gameplay stuff. Putting it below and making people scroll to find them would add more burden to them timewise and movement wise. People want to find things fast. What I meant in my comment in that page is this: [https://prnt.sc/1057sg7 (insert crappy MSPaint edit)]. Since the English language is read from left to right, it would make sense that people would be more likely to notice the left-most things than they would the right-most things. We can't really do anything about people just ignoring stuff but moving it to the left would at least make it a bit more obvious. -- [[User:Zoombie|Zoombie]] ([[User talk:Zoombie|talk]]) 01:31, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
:I think that putting "Your contributions are welcome!" before the gameplay section would be confusing. It would be great if tons of people wanted to contribute, but I agree with {{u|Zoombie}} that most people come to the Wiki to find info on the gameplay. It's important the Gameplay section is easy to find and understand. Especially on mobile, if people have to scroll past a bunch of irrelevant (to them) info, they will probably give up and not use the wiki at all. Perhaps, adding/changing some of wording about contributing to literally say  something like "How to Help with the GodWiki" would make it more obvious. I don't know. 🤔 -- [[User:Bibliophile|Bibliophile]] ([[User talk:Bibliophile|talk]]) 19:38, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
=== Collapsible diary box for main page ===
 
 
 
So I tried to make the diary template collapsible by clicking on the header/title. I don't like how we have to push the content downwards and having the collapsible toggle on the title would hopefully lessen the space each section takes up. I'd like to present the results.
 
 
 
<div style="position: relative; display: inline-block; vertical-align: top; margin: 0.4em 0 0.5em 0;  border: 1px solid #CCCCCC; border-radius: 6px; background-color: #FAFAFA; background: #F5F5F5 -webkit-linear-gradient(top, #F6F8F9, #E7E7E7 31px, #F7F7F7 31px, #F9F9F9); box-shadow: 0px 0px 5px #CFCA7A; font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 0.96em; line-height: 145%; padding: 4px; width: 100%;>
 
<div class = "mw-collapsible" data-collapsetext = "↑" data-expandtext = "↓" style="width: 100%; padding: 0; text-align: center;">
 
<div class="mw-collapsible-toggle" style="position: relative; height: 23px; margin: 0 auto; width: 100%; font-size: 90%;"><span style="position: absolute; left: 7px; font-family:'Em',Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-weight: bold;">!</span><span style="top: 0px; text-align: center; height: 32px; vertical-align: center; color:#444; font-size: 1em; font-weight: bold; margin: 0 auto;">Hero's Diary</span><span style="position: absolute; right: 7px; text-align: right; width: 48px; top: 0px; font-size: 16px;">↻ <span class="mw-collapsible-text">↑</span></span></div>
 
<div class = "mw-collapsible-content" style="color: #444444; clear: both; padding: 9px 5px 0px; position: relative; font-size: 0.96em; line-height: 1.8; text-align: initial;>
 
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Fusce molestie enim at velit consectetur, sit amet accumsan turpis venenatis. Etiam purus lectus, volutpat vel enim et, faucibus consequat ligula. Sed auctor congue eleifend. Curabitur a laoreet est, at varius tortor. Nam congue metus enim, ut mollis tortor imperdiet vel. Suspendisse vitae auctor lacus, non luctus urna. Integer sit amet metus sit amet tellus tristique varius sit amet id felis. Morbi elementum maximus justo non eleifend. Duis ornare tempor commodo. Sed eu ante congue, dignissim dolor vestibulum, tristique ex. Maecenas quis vestibulum magna. Aliquam eget placerat ligula. Suspendisse sit amet commodo nisl. Vestibulum turpis felis, accumsan faucibus tempor at, auctor at ipsum. Aliquam rutrum volutpat purus, ac sagittis felis fermentum id. Ut pharetra felis a semper ornare.</div>
 
</div></div></div>
 
 
 
I don't know how to do templates yet so it's all in HTML and CSS. 😅 Would this be a better way to present content on the Main Page or would it be confusing? -- [[User:Zoombie|Zoombie]] ([[User talk:Zoombie|talk]]) 13:36, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
: It's frankly quite a good job, but I'd say the toggle collapse button is clearly not explicit enough. If I didn't guessed where it was instantly, how the people who <s>never try seriously</s> are not confortable with the wiki are going to guess it?
 
: A proper button with text inside might not look stylish, but UX wise it's probably a better solution. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 17:34, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: Hmm... yes, UX is really tricky. One one hand, people like to explore and shiny smooth interface. On the other hand, people don't like tedious exploration and ugly clunky interface. 🤔 I must admit that I forgot to consider that people who mainly play on mobile might not be familiar with this look for diary entries. (I'm guessing the template was first made when the game is still mainly played on desktop?) I tried mimicking the way the diary looks and feels when collapsing it in the game, hence the minimal arrow beside the 'refresh button'. I'd argue though that the whole title is actually the button and not just the tiny arrow on the side. (The arrow is mainly an indication of whether the contents are collapsed or expanded.) That's a lot of space for clicking/tapping which may be useful for those on mobile. -- [[User:Zoombie|Zoombie]] ([[User talk:Zoombie|talk]]) 05:43, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: Just to be clear I '''do like''' your edit of the diary template to make it collapsible elegantly. My worry is user-side. I didn't noticed at first that the whole bar was actually the toggle button and I'm afraid that people don't understand at first sight that the diary template is collapsible or that they close the template and don't understand how they did it and how to reopen it (never overestimate user).
 
::: Maybe adding the word Show/Hide in place of the arrow could make it friendlier but anyway, this great idea of yours need some other feedbacks to turn us in the right direction. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 17:12, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::: Yes. I understand what you meant. I moved this section here in the hopes of it getting more attention. I'm worried that this template is not very obviously collapsible at first glance as well. I guess I'm just thinking that since current consensus seems to be keeping things expanded, it wouldn't be a problem if it's not noticeable. And I'm thinking that anyone who wants things collapsed will just ask somewhere for that option or just accidentally click the title and find out that collapsing things is already an option. But I'm probably being overly idealistic here. The reverse might also happen. Someone who wants to keep things expanded might accidentally click the title and collapse things. Hmm...🤔 I hope people give feedback on this so we'll know whether we can push through with this or scrap it. -- [[User:Zoombie|Zoombie]] ([[User talk:Zoombie|talk]]) 17:42, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{Outdent|::::}} I like what you've done {{u|Zoombie}}! That's really nice 😊 I do play the game from the app and use/edit the Wiki mainly on my phone, usually the iOS Safari browser. So this is from a mobile POV. Personally, I would assume the up arrow meant "open" and clicking the bar would collapse it. Or I would just try clicking the bar to see if was collapsible, regardless. To me it makes more sense from a UX perspective that tapping or clicking the title bar would collapse it. I use several productivity apps that use that "tap title" method of opening or collapsing sections, so it seems natural to me. But...I don't know that I'm representative of the average Wiki user. {{u|WardPhoenix}}'s suggestion of using "Show/Hide" is more obvious, but it isn't as elegant from a UI/aesthetic perspective. Maybe making the arrow bolder to stand out would work? --[[User:Bibliophile|Bibliophile]] ([[User talk:Bibliophile|talk]]) 20:59, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
: Thanks for the feedback, {{u|Bibliophile}}! I added a few variations in the [[Sandbox]] to make it easier to compare how they all look. -- [[User:Zoombie|Zoombie]] ([[User talk:Zoombie|talk]]) 04:24, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{Outdent|:}} I like the original the best, the minimalist look just appeals to me. If I had to choose one from the other options, it'd be the 2nd option under "different arrows", the others just look clunky to me. But my personal opinion doesn't seem to jive with the majority here, so I'm probably an outlier! ☺ -- [[User:Lakefire Arrow|Lakefire Arrow]] ([[User talk:Lakefire Arrow|talk]]) 11:59, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
I like the third (last) of two arrows version best. My true preference would be the last two arrow version, except with only one arrow. Only the title and an arrow on the right. More simplistic and makes collapsibility obvious without words. The other symbols on the title bar seem unnecessary and frankly confusing if you aren't familiar with how the desktop diary looks. I don't know enough about the template/code to know if there needs to be ''something'' on both sides for it to work, though.
 
 
 
TBH, I don't really like much of the original diary template "look" for the Main page, other than the less boxy shape. 😬 Obviously, if having more of  the diary look is the consensus, then it's fine with me. I do like {{u|Zoombie}}'s suggested modifications, though. I'm not doing any of the coding to make it all work so I can't complain too much. 😊 --[[User:Bibliophile|Bibliophile]] ([[User talk:Bibliophile|talk]]) 18:03, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
: {{tqb|I don't know enough about the template/code to know if there needs to be ''something'' on both sides for it to work, though.}} No, there doesn't need to be anything on both side for it to work. In fact, the toggles can even be invisible. Added those options if you want to see them. 😊 -- [[User:Zoombie|Zoombie]] ([[User talk:Zoombie|talk]]) 07:09, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
I'm more worried about how this design will behave with the templated contents. I feel like something is going to go wrong somewhere. There's just something weird about how collapsibles behave in GW that I can't quite put my finger on. 😟 Hopefully, it will get fixed by the update whenever that happens. -- [[User:Zoombie|Zoombie]] ([[User talk:Zoombie|talk]]) 07:09, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
=== Ask for help ===
 
 
 
{{u|Zoombie}} has pointed out to me that new users '''still''' have a difficult time finding help. I think the issue might be that new users don't really read any of the words on the main page. They land in the wiki for something like their user page, and get lost and confused. Maybe they click a button that brings them to Wikipedia how to edit a page. Maybe they see the guidebook or something similar. But somehow they don't get that they can actually ask for help.
 
 
 
In the tradition of KISS (keep it simple stupid), I propose that we put a giant banner at the top of the main page. It should say something like "there are other users who can guide you and help you, just click here..." or more. --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 23:02, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
: Or a banner that says something like "Ways You Can Contribute! Ask Anything Here!" From my experience: I'll admit that I was confused, intimidated, and very tentative to edit anything back when I first wanted to do anything with the Wiki. I think my first "big" edit was correcting a typo 😂 The Main Page "Help" Section jumps straight into volunteering by writing articles or uploading graphics, which was overwhelming for me. First, I only wanted to start out small by creating my [[User:Bibliophile|User:Bibliophile]] page and Talk page. Plus, I was confused as to what in the Wiki was factual about the game versus the more fictional article descriptions. I wanted to help in more of a practical "copywriting/editing" way but wasn't sure what else I could do if I didn't want write a whole article. I know the answers now, but it wasn't obvious at first.
 
 
 
: I also overthink things, so despite areas to ask for help, I couldn't decide which section was most appropriate to ask for "general" wiki help 🤦🏻‍♀️ Fortunately, {{u|Djonni}} came to my rescue, taking the initiative of answering questions on my Talk page and in chat. His detailed and friendly explanations helped me understand some of quirks of the GodWiki and other ways to help. Then I "met" all you other users who helped me as well 😊 Just my 2 cents on why asking for help might be a bit confusing for people. --[[User:Bibliophile|Bibliophile]] ([[User talk:Bibliophile|talk]]) 15:53, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
The way I see it, most new people come here to either create their own user page or to create a page for their newly formed guild. The guidebook, guidelines and template docs for those are either too intimidating or too technical. I am an outlier here in the sense that I already have some HTML and CSS skills along with a bit of past coding experience to help me understand some of the more technical bits and that I tried to read almost every instructions, talk pages and the user pages of the regular editors who manage the wiki for scraps of technical wiki knowledge before getting my wiki access so I was somewhat prepared when I made my user page and know where to ask for help. Plus, I immediately made a Sandbox (I had to Google how to make a Sandbox and it took a few hours of reading to understand how to get it done.) to tinker with the layout before putting everything in my actual user page. Still, I find myself regularly searching in Google for doing various wiki stuff and slowly learning by reading codes in articles and talk pages especially when it comes to layout stuff. Having no access to the wiki's CSS and MediaWiki having separate mobile and desktop pages is presenting some really maddening layout challenges. I spent a few days to a week just getting the top part of my user page to layout correctly because the built-in spacer in usergod was messing with my layout and I didn't know how substitution worked. So my problems were more advanced and I just ended up ranting about my initial frustration in the wiki and I am getting off-tangent now.
 
 
 
Back to the topic, I think it is also probably more likely for non-native English speakers to make their user page or guild page than create a new article. And there is a certain hesitation among non-native English speakers to speak to other people because they are either too self-conscious of their English skills (How many times have you read or heard "Sorry for my bad English" all over the internet?) or they actually only know really really basic English and have a hard time conveying their ideas. It's not just speaking. It may also be likely that non-native English speakers don't really like reading so much text because they can barely understand anything and eventually miss the part about the Help Request section. ('''Help Request is currently at the bottom of the Creator's Manual and is very easy to miss. There's also no link to the Help Request page in any of the Guidelines.''') The same skimming through text behavior may also be present in those not technically inclined. I'm pretty sure all of us here has experienced having our eyes just glazed over and blanking out while reading some thing we can barely comprehend.
 
 
 
I am merely speculating here and extrapolating from similar experiences and observations outside the wiki because, again, I am an outlier in that I know enough big words to sound eloquent as a non-native English speaker and I play in the forum games to get a feel of the community. I do know at least one person in my friend list (who turned out to be from the same country as me) who was hesitant to come over to the forums because it is dominated by older gods (hence, intimidating) and they aren't sure if their English skills are up to task (It was fine. A few grammar problems here and there but it's understandable and coherent.)
 
 
 
In the end, we can't really answer the question of how to let users know that GW is not a total ghost town and that there are plenty of avenues to ask for help regarding the wiki because we simply lack data about how newcomers experience the wiki, how users use the wiki (be it creating, editing or just reading articles and pages) and how everyone perceives the wiki. The idea of having a survey about GW has been tossed around above and the issues about privacy and participation has been brought up but so far no conclusions has been made. I'd propose an impromptu one on one interview like the one I posted on the guidebook sandbox discussion for data gathering but the problem with it is that it's just too time consuming (It took two days to ask two people around five questions each and that's only because our time difference is two hours or less and they actively play the game everyday.) and befriending everyone and chatting them all up is impossible. It does get people to participate though especially if they're the chatty type because it is more casual than a survey and you can tailor any follow up questions based on how they answered. Maybe this could work on the various Discord servers related to Godville. Idk. I'm not in any Discord servers. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯-- [[User:Zoombie|Zoombie]] ([[User talk:Zoombie|talk]]) 18:21, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
Banner box - option 1 (using {{tlx|Sign}})
 
{{Sign
 
| title = Need help?
 
| emoji = ❓
 
| text = insert text here
 
}}
 
 
 
Banner box - option 2 (using HTML + CSS)
 
<div style = "border: 1px solid gray; display: flex; justify-content: center;"><div style = "margin: 10px;">insert text here</div></div>
 
 
 
: {{tqb|There's also no link to the Help Request page in any of the Guidelines.}} There is one in the navbox included in every Guideline but anyway, that's not the subject. It may sound harsh or arrogant, but I do think that those complaining about having no idea how to do things on GW doesn't help themselves much. If you don't know, search. If you can't find, ask. That's just basic mindset.
 
 
 
: If no one talk or ask answer, how are we supposed to know they needed help? When I started GW, i had no knowledge as well. I am French, so my English is what it can be. And what did I did when I found out GW? I asked and someone help me.
 
 
 
: I can understand that the wiki guidelines, and especially the Creators'Manual may be too much wall of text (as the one who rewrote it I can admit it clear enough) and yet they never have been in a better shape in GW history (there were worse back then).
 
 
 
: Even though they can clearly be upgraded (hence the current work on the Guidebook). But we have never been more than 5 active deities on the backstage of the GW in the two last years, which obviously slow down the process of upgrading things (and of having feedbacks).
 
 
 
: And I am pretty sure the banner wouldn't be still enough somehow. I was the one up for the survey, but again not much feedback from others users back then, so it was left at that.
 
 
 
: Sorry if that comes out at too much aggressive ranting, I do want to help people get more into GW and have worked on that since I joined here but I am tired of reading the excuse of struggling from people who never ask for question... --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 21:20, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: Lol [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] every time this comes up you have the same rant, and then apologize, no need for the apology. I totally hear you, and agree with what you are saying. People do need to learn to lift a finger to help themselves. However, I think you are not realizing something. Most people don't care for learning coding languages. They just want to enjoy themselves. If they are enjoying something a bunch and THEN need to learn something new, they will probably be up for the challenge. However, if their first introduction to the wiki is a confusing mystery, like it was for me, it doesn't look fun. Don't forget, godville is a game, not a job. They have no vested interest in figuring things out unless they see immediate returns of enjoyment. If we make it stupid simple to START on the wiki, people will come to realize the same enjoyment we do, and then be motivated to continue learning on their own. That was my journey, I havre up a few times, got confused, finally decided to Google things and jump in. Then I screwed up a template, freaked out, and left the wiki for another six months. I don't want others to have that experience.
 
 
 
:: {{tqi|There is one in the navbox included in every Guideline}} until very recently, I'm embarrassed to admit, I had no clue what the heck the navboxes were, and I'm not exactly new around here. I never noticed them, and I've I did I thought they wee just done relic from a bad wiki code thing. As {{u|Zoombie}} mentioned, many people don't read, they skim. They aren't bind to notice something they are not even looking for unless it hits them in the face. I used the wiki fit a long time before I discovered that there was a way to get help, simply cuz I never looked. I never looked because I couldn't imagine that such a thing existed, I had no idea there was a community. I was scared of messing up something, and didn't raise there was such a friendly group of "elders" here.
 
 
 
:: As an aside, I don't think we will get feedback from users until '''after''' we put something up. Once we get engagement and get people into the wiki, they will provide feedback about what worked and what didn't. Surveys didn't get engagement in the past, and I doubt that will change for now. --[[User:His portliness|His portliness]] ([[User talk:His portliness|talk]]) 22:23, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
Question: How important is this line in the main page: '''The GodWiki now has 3,287 articles, and Goddesses and Gods are continuing their divine work, enriching Godville's pages with the threads of their ingenious creations.'''? I feel like it doesn't really add anything to the main page and eats up a lot of space (especially on mobile) that I think we can can use for something else. (Not sure what that something else is yet though.) I've scoured random wikis earlier and while a lot of them have that line with statistics and stuff, there's also a few that doesn't add them and quite frankly, not having that line doesn't diminish or is detrimental to any of those wikis. I do want to point out that we do have this line below: '''First time here? We recommend reading the Godwiki Guidebook!''' but it feels lacking. Like, it doesn't really grab attention. Somehow I feel like it doesn't really mesh well with the overall design, like, the icons seem to overpower it. I don't have a solution for this though but that's why I'm presenting it here in case someone else may have an opinion on this. 😃
 
 
 
While I am inclined to agree with the opinion that people who seriously want to contribute to GW will take the time to actively seek out answers or find people who can help them, that still leaves out total newcomers who will have more of a passing curiosity than a burning passion. It's like shopping. These are the shoppers who are curious about this new shop and might poke around a bit. If they can't find anything that interests them or if they can't find anyone who can help them (i.e. not satisfied with the presentation of the shop or the service in the shop), they'll simply move on. Rare are those of us who stick around and really dig around the site. And this site is a maze at the moment. There is a possibility that there may come a time when no one is around on the backstage of the wiki. Which isn't really a good thing because it will affect UX little by little until it snowballs into making the wiki a really annoying site that either someone steps in (whether that be the devs or another set of editors) or everyone simply abandons the site and it becomes more of a museum piece than a living site. (An aside: I'm probably imagining things but wikis seem to be more active when there's a Discord/chat/IRC attached to it.) Just because we experienced certain hardships in the beginning of our foray into the wiki (lol what am I talking about? I've only been here for a month.), doesn't mean that the ones who will be coming after us has to experience and feel the same.
 
 
 
On the flip side, to be honest, if I wasn't studying front end, I wouldn't be this invested in the wiki. I might have poked around a bit, read all the articles, maybe the discussions too, to see if there's something I can do aside from making articles (which is really intimidating for a newcomer who isn't a writer and is not confident enough in their writing skills) but overall, I'll probably just move on because there doesn't seem to be any activities in the wiki that grab my attention and it simply isn't interesting. There's just no momentum in the wiki. (I'm a loner though so I have a predilection with doing things on my own and I'm usually happier on my own.) I'll still probably do stuff like update equipment durability, add new monsters or artifacts, and fix typos from time to time but that would most likely be the extent of my wiki activities. Same as most normal users. (Let's face it, I'm not really someone you can consider a normal user at this point.) It probably takes quite a while for most normal users to gain enough momentum and confidence to start contributing here. So, I guess what I'm trying to say here is that we can't really force people or rush things.
 
 
 
Also, I feel like it is relevant to think about how newcomers land on the wiki. Especially on mobile. I feel like the left-most panel on mobile with all the links to the forums, the newspaper and the wiki may be a bit hidden or rather, that users don't always reach that part of the app. An alternative to reaching GW without going to that left-most panel is via the blue links in the diary which will connect the user to a monster article. Blue links in the diary is rare enough that it retains a certain novelty that is likely to spark curiosity. Same with desktop, the top panel is easy to ignore but the blue links in the diary is very tempting to click. The default mobile wiki skin is crappy though. All the links are at the bottom of the page so it's really easy to ignore and miss. Even to this day, I don't really reach the bottom links on the GW when I'm on mobile.
 
 
 
Re: forging on with new ideas VS waiting for feedback from others. I'm the careful type especially with communities so I really really want to wait for feedback and get a go signal from a majority before going forward but {{u|His portliness}} has a point in that we only seem to get feedback after the fact. I mean, I get it, it is easier to react to something that is already there and actively affecting you than it is with something that is still tentative or worse, in the planning/imaginary stage. At this rate, everything will be left hanging and nothing gets done. However, I still advice caution in every step especially with major changes that affect all, or if not, most users. It's best to cover as much holes in the plan as we can and prepare for every possible scenario that we can before proceeding. I'll take radio silence as a signal that either the plan is good enough or that the decision has been left at my hands and I can do whatever I want. It's likely a "do or <s>die? whut?</s> do not" scenario at that point. -- [[User:Zoombie|Zoombie]] ([[User talk:Zoombie|talk]]) 11:27, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
: {{tqb|Question: How important is this line in the main page: The GodWiki now has 3,287 articles, and Goddesses and Gods are continuing their divine work, enriching Godville's pages with the threads of their ingenious creations.?}} Frankly?  Not much IMO. It's there because it was always there basically (story of the monkeys and the banana), though it is a redundant with the Welcome just above. I had though about deleting during the facelift process but forgot that thought.
 
 
 
: {{tqb|Like, it doesn't really grab attention.}} If the bolding is not enough we can always add an emoji or color (though that one should be done with caution).
 
 
 
: {{tqb|we only seem to get feedback after the fact. [...] At this rate, everything will be left hanging and nothing gets done.}} Sadly enough, yes (hence why I rant that much 😂). Why do you think I just pushed the facelift to Main Page after weeks of silent sandbox ? Risky enough in normal case but if I hadn't done it, facelift would still be in the sandbox. And considering it was globally, from what i read, seen as a positive change, it would have been a shame to left it there.
 
 
 
: {{tqb|I'll take radio silence as a signal that either the plan is good enough or that the decision has been left at my hands and I can do whatever I want.}} This is a wiki, first "rule" is basically '''[[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Be Bold|Be Bold]]'''. If someone doesn't like what you did or have a comment or want to changes something, they will just do changes and/or comment on it on talk pages.
 
 
 
: By the way if that plan (I kinda forgot where we were going with that talk) is to create a banner for [[Help:Requests]] ; instead of creating a new sign we could just use the already placed in main page {{{tlx|Godwiki event banner}} that could fit the purpose. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 12:03, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
::{{tqb|By the way if that plan (I kinda forgot where we were going with that talk) is to create a banner for [[Help:Requests]] ; instead of creating a new sign we could just use the already placed in main page {{{tlx|Godwiki event banner}} that could fit the purpose.}} I didn't know this exists. This is probably exactly what we need.
 
 
 
:: {{tqb| If the bolding is not enough we can always add an emoji or color (though that one should be done with caution).}} I agree with the caution. We've had backlash with the yellow on the top part earlier. I'm thinking we can replace this part with the banner or incorporate the top part into a banner though we run into the danger of boxing everything again. I believe the facelift was done to get away from the old boxy look of the wiki?
 
 
 
:: Some interesting wiki banners/top pages I've looked at. Gonna put screenshots too since they may look different on mobile. I'm not saying we copy them but we can definitely learn from them and see what options we have.
 
::* [https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/One_Piece_Wiki| One Piece Wiki] ([https://prnt.sc/10hnxm4 screenshot]) - It's link heavy but the links are all related to how to contribute on the wiki and community links like forums and Discord and the like. (Does Godville have an official Discord server? I'm under the impression that the Discord server everyone talks about is originally from one of the guilds and is not an official one though the devs recognize it.) Their guidebook also have a nice structure where things are separated and tabbed. (I wonder if we can use tabs here.) They also have a link to a list of wiki Admin and Mods which we can probably emulate by pointing to the Volunteers section of the Help:Request page. The mobile version looks bare though due to the default mobile layout of Fandom.
 
::* [https://walkingdead.fandom.com/wiki/The_Walking_Dead_Wiki The Walking Dead Wiki] ([https://prnt.sc/10ho7p4 screenshot]) - Has some nice poster look in their main page banner. The links are not obvious but they're there. Mobile version looks more or less the same as One Piece Wiki.
 
::* [https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Narutopedia Narutopedia] ([https://prnt.sc/10hoeia screenshot]) - Nothing special here but "anyone can contribute" links to a Community Portal which I think is one options we can consider here. Again, nothing special on mobile.
 
::* [https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Main_Page Dragonball Wiki] ([https://prnt.sc/10hot21 screenshot]) - Nothing too interesting here. It's similar to the One Piece Wiki. The interesting part of their main page is probably [https://prnt.sc/10hovfh this]. Mobile is, again, meh.
 
::* [https://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Minecraft_Wiki Minecraft Wiki] ([https://prnt.sc/10hoika screenshot]) - It's old school style which we moved away from already but I'm more interested in where "anyone can contribute" links to. It links to a How to Help page that lists out a lot of options. Mobile layout got rid of most of the links and the fancy backgrounds but it's still mostly the same.
 
::* [https://terraria.gamepedia.com/Terraria_Wiki Terraria Wiki] ([https://prnt.sc/10hox7c screenshot1] [https://prnt.sc/10hoy38 screenshot2] [https://prnt.sc/10hoz2d screenshot3]) - Nothing too interesting. It's just very similar to GW in terms of function and layout. They have nice little icons on their links similar to our use of emojis. And they emphasize giving users access to gameplay stuff first before contributions. It also looks like they get more or less the same amount of activity as GW. -- [[User:Zoombie|Zoombie]] ([[User talk:Zoombie|talk]]) 05:02, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 
 
 
{{outdent|::}}{{tqb|Does Godville have an official Discord server?}} There is no official (in the way it would be deal by the dev), but there is an active one with hundreds of deities registered : [https://discord.gg/ZNJTgYu3Xk].
 
 
 
{{tqb|Some interesting wiki banners/top pages I've looked at.}} Frankly, when I look at those, I find  our home page quite good. The only one who left me a good impression were the Naruto and Terraria ones in terms of design. IMO, the only main issue with ours is the two redundant line of welcome and statistics.
 
 
 
Then we could discuss if having many links to contribute like we have at the moment is a good solution or not. But if the Godwiki Guidebook become a "How to contribute" Index, then we can easily pass those links in the trap and just having a link to Guidebook and Help:Requests.
 
 
 
But this topic was initially about the Ask for Help, looks like we're getting out of tracks here. The fact the {{tlx|Godwiki event banner}} have a border doesn't not seem an issue to me. Initially that one is there for event, so having it bordered help emphasize it, even more now that we removed header border. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 21:55, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 

Latest revision as of 12:04, 14 April 2021