Talk:Main Page

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Revision as of 21:05, 12 September 2019 by WardPhoenix (talk | contribs) (Theming or Other Event Brainstorms)
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Old and/or inactive discussions have been moved to the archive subpage.

Encouraging use of user talk pages

So, I've written this message, which I'm thinking of going around and (manually) placing on the User talk pages of everyone whose User: page is redirected to the main-article space, to point out that they won't receive talk-page message notifications unless they use their corresponding user talk page.

(This covers two types of users:)

  1. Those with user talk pages like User talk:BlueStapler, User talk:Hershey Almighty, etc. that are redirected to Talk:BlueStapler, Talk:Hershey Almighty, etc.
  2. Users like User:Hairplug4men, User:EJ Rose, etc. with redirected User pages, who have no redirect for their user talk page.

Basically it's about 50 people, I have a whole list. Most of them are probably not active users, but I'd plan to contact them all regardless. If they never see it, oh well. If they do, then great.

I just wanted to solicit feedback before I start.

With Special:ExpandTemplates, you can see what the message would look like when it's placed on Djonni's talk page (as an example). Click the following url:

https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=Special:ExpandTemplates&wpInput=%7b%7bsafesubst:User:FeRDNYC/User+Talk+Message%7d%7d&wpContextTitle=User+talk:Djonni

You'll see the formatted message at the bottom of the page. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 01:51, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

It seems some people keeps on redirect their user page to another page for some reasons, tried to leave messages but it don't seem to reach through. Well it's not really a serious issue but still happens. --WardPhoenix (talk) 16:03, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Honestly, though, that's fine and if people want to do it then more power to 'em. (There are all sorts of reasons why someone might want to, including intending their user page to be editable by other people. That's the reason Djonni (talkcontribs) specifically gives on his talk page.) If people want to keep a "god" page in the article namespace, as long as it's properly categorized no harm done. It's only when the corresponding talk page isn't redirected back to User talk: space that there's a down side. But it works just fine to maintain a non-User:Foo userpage at Foo, with a Talk:Foo page that redirects to User talk:foo, and doing that means they won't miss notifications. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 20:49, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, the example-message URL above was "down" for a couple of weeks, as I'd repurposed the page in question to do canvassing for the JanuWiki post-mortem and forgot to set it back afterwards. Anyway, it's working again now. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 16:54, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
I'm joining this conversation pretty late, and FeRDNYC hasn't been around the wiki since April... does anyone know if he went ahead with the plan? I think it's a very good idea, speaking from my own experience with an unredirected talk page! -- Djonni (talk) 09:03, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

I don't think he end up doing it, but I could be wrong.--WardPhoenix (talk) 13:29, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, alright. I found his draft at User:FeRDNYC/User Talk Message. I think it's a bit wordy personally, and gets a little lost in the weeds about the history of notifications on mediawiki sites, and needs a heavy edit. But I think his idea is really good and we should work up a better draft and go ahead with it.
It's a shame he isn't around at the moment (I'll leave him a talkback regardless!) because he went to the trouble of compiling a list of the affected users and we don't have it! I'll have to do that myself. -- Djonni (talk) 15:07, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Theming or Other Event Brainstorms

FeRDNYC makes a really good point above that two big events a year would be amazing, but that there's also opportunities for smaller events. With the basis that JanuWiki should now be an annual event, perhaps this should be a list of other event or drive ideas (big and small) that we could do, to figure out how we could space things to still get necessary stuff done. -- SourceRunner (talk) 17:37, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

  • JanuWiki 2020: Year of the WikiGnome/GodWikiStmas -- Big event. Next JanuWiki. Starts when? Ends January 31, 2020. Wrap-up ends February 29, 2020. Theming granularity? Process certainties?
  • Guidelines and Guide Resources Drive

(Please expand)

  • Easter Interlink Special -- Small event. EIS Eternal would be willing to sponsor a small wiki event during the Easter week or two weeks, with the object of adding links between pages on GodWiki (with reasonable reasons for doing so). One of the wiki strengths is the ability to create an ecosystem of lore, and the best way to explore that is following links between pages. So there could be the a specific event that GodWiki editors and content creators each chose a pair of pages to interlink, and write the lore between them that explains their relationships in the ecosystem and links the two. A report to the "Help Request" page when finished a pairing would make the pair's linker eligible for a reward of some sort after EIS checks that it has been done and does make sense.
  • Trans-Lore-Ation -- Small event. A lot of Godville lore is in the forums and tucked away in little sections of personal chronicles. As players, we in common tend to "know" this lore to be true, but not have it on GodWiki. How about a small event where people scavenger-hunt their favorite descriptions of towns, taverns, monsters, and Godville myths from the older parts of forums and the crannies of guild and personal pages, then add excerpts and possible links to the applicable pages in GodWiki.
  • Stub It Out -- Large event. Survey what articles with the "Stub" tag are still stubs, and remove tags where appropriate. Expand articles that are still stubs.
  • "Wherefore ART Thou?" -- Large event(?). Adding art to the "picture needed" category articles. Some artists need a long time to plan, so this may need to be a slow or multi-phase event.
Could be associated with the stub event maybe?


Sounds like there is some good ideas ready for the oven. I'd say that if you want to throw an event, just go for it. Create a page for it and allow us to help for the preparation.
Maybe we should make like a planner for upcomming events. By the way, talks about upcomming event may be more appropriate on the main talk
As for JanuWiki2020 (or GodWikiStmas maybe), I'd say we have the time to see it coming. Let's care of other event before.
--WardPhoenix (talk) 23:55, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
As another idea for a possible event (I don't even know if it would be considered big or small), Category:Pictures needed is up to 314 entries. That's 314 existing articles (primarily ones that use {{Monster}}, {{Artifact}}, or {{Equipment}}) which don't have an image to go with their subject. Trimming that list down a bit could also be a good way to get non-writers involved in creating wiki content. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 06:39, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
Oh, yes, and Category:Stubs is up to 552 articles that (in theory) need fleshing-out.
I say "in theory" because some of them may not really be stubs, having been expanded since they were tagged that way. In the "Advanced options" at the bottom of the appearance preferences is the option "Threshold for stub link formatting". It takes a length (in bytes) an article's source must be so it's not considered a stub. Links to all articles shorter than that threshold will be colored with a darker shade of red than the standard redlink coloring.
I currently have that preference set to 1000 bytes, and still some of the items in Category:Stubs are colored blue. It's certainly possible for an article that's over 1000 bytes long to also be a stub, but it's also possible that there's already plenty of content there and the stub designation is outdated / overzealous. I'd say maybe 10-15% of the category's members show non-stub link coloring. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 07:00, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
These are great ideas for events, WardPhoenix and FeRDNYC. I've added them to the bullet point list above, and tried to evaluate them as large or small, based on your descriptions. Please feel free to expand or change what's in the bullet list.
WardPhoenix, good suggestion about the planner/calendar for events. Is something like that possible in GodWiki, FeRDNYC? --SourceRunner (talk) 15:21, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

I'd say that if you want to throw an event, just go for it. Create a page for it and allow us to help for the preparation.
— User:WardPhoenix

I would agree with that, with one small adjustment: When you decide you definitely are throwing an event, creating a page for it would be the first step in preparing for it, and can serve as the formal announcement of the upcoming event.
I think Djonni worked up to JanuWiki 2019 exactly the right way (whether intentionally or by pure luck): He put out feelers on the forums and in a proposal here at Talk:Main Page, and used those discussions to solicit feedback and take the community's temperature on the idea. Then once he was sure there was sufficient interest that he could commit to definitely doing an event, he pulled the trigger on creating the event page, at which point he had someplace he could link to as a "more information" resource when he made the official announcement(s) about the upcoming event.
At any stage of planning, there's always the possibility that an event could end up getting cancelled for lack of involvement or interest. Things happen. But that risk can be minimized by getting at least a core team on board before putting a lot of work into constructing an event framework for a "maybe" or "possible" event. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 14:43, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Moved this to the main page as it is more appropriate place and also easier to reach (yeah I'm lazy to reach for januwiki page every time on my phone). By the way I think the EIS event would be quite interesting, and as easter is coming i'd suggest we start thinking about it if you really want to kick it. On a side note, I don't think a guideline event would be appropriate. Guidelines are supposed to be wrote by experimented and active users for beginners. That's more something we have to work on with experimented users I'd say. -- WardPhoenix (talk) 23:02, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

That's a fair point, re: the Guidelines. I guess it depends how broadly you define "event". Certainly, you're right, guidelines-updates aren't the sort of free-for-all activity where we'd put out a call to the entire Godville user community for participation. Maybe "an effort", or "a sprint" (to employ some of my least-favorite software development jargon), among those experienced users.
That being said...
  1. A lot of what's lacking in the current Guidelines articles just comes down to formatting, copyediting, structure, and layout fixes — things that could be done by almost anyone, especially with guidance, as there's no real expertise needed. (However, as they also need major content updates, they're definitely not entirely fixable by casual editors alone. But they could be vastly improved.)
  2. Because (as you say) the target audience for the Guidelines is inexperienced users, in my experience it's a huge mistake to write them without any input from users at or near that level. One of the things I learned in software development is that you never have the senior programmer, the one who wrote most of the code and knows every aspect of the software inside-and-out, write the instruction manual. If they try, 90% of the time it'll end up being unintelligible to the "average users" it's supposed to be written for.

    (It's the same reason you NEVER sign up for a freshman-level "Intro to Whatever" class if it's taught by that department's most senior, most published, most brilliant researcher. Very few people whose knowledge of a topic is at that level will be capable of "dumbing things down" sufficiently that they can effectively teach it to students who have virtually no background in the subject. Everything will go right over their heads.)

The two trickiest problems in documentation don't have anything to do with knowledge or accuracy of information: The first is figuring out exactly where your target audience is at in terms of background knowledge and skill level, so that you know which things need to be explained, vs. what they probably already know so you don't waste their time repeating it. The other problem, then, is being able to explain things at that level, without leaving out any of the information they need because it's just implicitly assumed or seems "obvious" to someone with more experience.
...But, all that being said I agree that Guidelines updates wouldn't make sense as an "event" in the JanuWiki mold, where we try to solicit come-one-come-all participation from as many users as possible. Heck, they may not be a very good fit for any sort of organized "group effort" at all — our best bet may be for someone to eventually just dive in and start making Bold changes to define an updated, improved structure for the content. Even if they only update a single Guideline article, once there's an example to work off of, other editors can pitch in to apply the same changes to the rest of the Guidelines. (That sort of example-based, follow-the-leader model is how most content-wide changes propagate here, really. Djonni created the {{hero or heroine}} template set, but he's responsible for only a handful of edits that applied those templates to article content.) -- FeRDNYC (talk) 14:43, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
So, I'm belatedly rejoining the event conversation, having dropped off the planet halfway through JanuWiki, and then slunk back onto the scene in the twilight of SummerWiki. I think it's worth picking this thread back up, with a chance for folks to share observations.
First: SummerWiki was close to a one-man show, with WardPhoenix pulling almost all the weight. I mention this for two reasons: to publicly acknowledge, thank, and congratulate him for it, and to reinforce what I felt were necessary preconditions for JanuWiki: many hands making light work; and the importance of excitement and buy-in from many people early on.
User:WardPhoenix and I have chatted privately about the struggle to get SummerWiki rolling, but I invite him to add his thoughts and feelings about it here :)
I think we can continue to plan for future GodWiki events, and we now have two quite different events to base our planning on. We didn't get the same levels of involvement in SummerWiki as we did for JanuWiki, and that's important in informing our thinking about future events. Please comment or disagree with these observations of mine, and please note, these observations are done with benefit of hindsight and are definitely not intended in a spirit of criticism, but of shared learning:
  1. I think that the length of SummerWiki made it difficult to maintain excitement throughout the event. Having a one-month burst of productivity gave SummerWiki a sense of time-pressure and drama, I think.
  2. I think we were successful through SummerWiki in consistently drawing people across the wall (as I think of it) between the Godwiki and the rest of the game. I think we succeeded in two ways on that:
    • Keeping a bit of a carnival atmosphere going in the forum with updates and super positive messaging and wording
    • Creating a sense of competition among some guilds that led to some clusters of contribution from their members
  3. I think that these things are not as simple as they seem, and they take energy, attention, and time to do (to do right, or to do at all), and that's not trivial. So, having many active supporters and workers (from different guilds, time zones, backgrounds) was really key in the success. I think this contrasts strongly with WardPhoenix's experience with SumerWiki — I'm definitely not minimizing the impact of folks like Cham Almighty and other contributing editors from Help:Requests. But the absence of key driving personalities that made such a huge impact on JanuWiki was, I think, really felt during SummerWiki.
I would love for us to continue planning and executing Godwiki events, and learning these and other lessons will let us do that, I think. But please don't hesitate to contradict or criticise any of this if you disagree... -- Djonni (talk) 10:46, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
I'd resume my opinion about this in a single sentence. Most Gods and Goddesses don't care much about the Godwiki. Then, if you want more details, I'd say that many advertising was done, here and on Talk:SummerWiki 2019, on forums (Thanks SourceRunner and S624 for that), game announcment (thx the dev), in godvoices. And basically almost no one outside of the active Godwiki users went in. So there was basically no excitement to maintain to begin with (and we decided 2 months so people had more time to write and in case of vacations), and those who say who'll help probably got caught up with life. So I'll conclude by saying that Summer wasn't the best time and that people doesn't want to contribute in general. It might sound salty, but after hours working on the event, for less than 15 articles done, I think I can be a little dissapointed with the community in general^^. It was probably also my fault for not being either in a major guild, or being a long-known player of the game. --WardPhoenix (talk) 21:05, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

The Monstrous Recapitalisation of 2019

So, the way the game handles capitalisation after a hyphen in a monster name has changed recently. The Ideabox has always automatically capitalised monster ideas, but it didn't historically treat a hyphen as a word break, and it does now... Mostly. A word after a hyphen will be capitalised if it is at least 3 (or maybe it's 4) characters long. This is an attempt to make sure that articles and short prepositions in hyphenated words are not capitalised, according to traditional title caps rules. And, of course, ER editors can manually change capitalisation in cases where that simple rule hasn't quite got something right, as they always could.

At the same time, existing monster names in the game have been recapitalised to match normal English typography. The recapitalisation seems to follow these rough rules:

  1. Where something after a hyphen was already capitalised, it has stayed that way (the only changes are to previously lowercase letters immediately after a hyphen)
  2. Articles and prepositions after a hyphen remain lowercase, as they would in a title (e.g. Monster-in-Law), but not entirely consistently (see point 1, e.g. Missing-In-Action Figure)
  3. Word fragments, e.g. Arrgh-onaut, remain uncapitalised, but not entirely consistently (see point 1, e.g. Flame-Ingo)
  4. Otherwise, words after a hyphen have been capitalised pretty consistently.

This post here is essentially to signal that there will be some monster pages that need to be moved to their new capitalisation, and edits being made to List of Monsters as well as monster articles as required. I'm going to do a lot of this, but even taking advantage of some extra external resources I probably won't catch everything, and there's a chance I might move or correct things to a wrong capitalisation.

If you see a hyphenated monster name in the game, and that monster is capitalised differently on the Godwiki, then we need to fix it! It can be a bit of work to make those changes, though, so if you spot something wrong but don't have the opportunity (or perhaps knowledge) to do it yourself, please leave a note about it (right here, or on the monster article's talk page if that's easier) and another editor should get the changes done mañana.

That said... if you think you don't have the skills you're probably wrong. Be Bold, try to do it yourself, and if someone can see you're struggling or not getting it right they'll clean up after you. No muss, no fuss, no worries. It's really not more work for an experienced editor to fix a mistake someone else makes, than for that editor to do the work in the first place, so you're never creating more work for someone else!

A brief checklist for myself and others:

  • If the monster has an article:
    • The article must be moved to the correct name. (Looking at original article, the "More" menu in the top right has the "Move" action. Is this also true on mobile? Can't recall and can't currently check.)
    • Text in article body corrected as needed. {{Monster}} infobox should be fine, as it uses the {{PAGENAME}} magic word by default, but double-check for |title= parameters or unusual description text.
  • List of Monsters to be updated.
  • Check for a relevant navbox and update. (A text search will only include the main namespace by default, but hitting 'Everything' or 'Advanced' in the results will allow searching of templates.)
  • If time permits, search for text in pages with the old capitalisation. Put quotes "..." around the name to get the right results. (Two birds with one stone: correcting the capitalisation and an opportunity to increase interlinking if the monster has an article.)
  • If time permits (lowest priority though, I think), update Omnibus List. The main users of the Omnibus are crossword solvers, to whom capitalisation is irrelevant.

(Please feel free to add to or alter that checklist if I've missed something.)

Obviously, this is a fairly low priority and on-going project, so it'll take a while and a bit of work to get done together. :) -- Djonni (talk) 08:44, 12 September 2019 (UTC)