Talk:JanuWiki 2019/Preload with infobox

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A proposal re: infobox preloads

My suggestion regarding the infobox preloads, rather than doing that $2$3$4$5$6 nonsense for the infoboxes like I did in my sample version, would be to create one preload page per infobox type (since there are so few infobox types). The only reason I did that nonsense for my sample page was because I didn't want to create multiple pages I could never delete. But for preloads we plan to use in practice, it makes more sense to create JanuWiki 2019/Preload equipment, JanuWiki 2019/Preload monster, etc. and just place a static infobox shell in each. Then we can preload the entire set of infobox parameters for each infobox type, without having to care that they're all different lengths, and the URLs get so much simpler. We can also add instruction-comments next to certain lines, like {{Monster}}'s |boss= and |pet=. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 05:06, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Well, I had planned to simplify the preload page (having the $2$3$4 etc all adjacent seemed fairly redundant, since it can just as easily all be in a single preloadparams statement). I did consider separate and specific monster, artifact, etc preload pages, but it just didn't seem worth it. I mean, there's only one equipment item in the list, for example, and it seemed far more sensible to use a single preload page with the infobox type and content set by preloadparams. It's not too difficult to put HTML comments into the preloadparams statements, in fact, I tried it out with the test quest link and it works fine. :)
I think the simplest approach, with only about 20ish links to create, is to make the templates pretty type-agnostic. There's only one boss on the list, for example, and it seems far more straightforward to simply include {{urlencode: {{!}} boss = yes}}%0A{{urlencode: {{!}} boss-type = 1ab}} for the Beerzerker than include {{urlencode: {{!}} boss = }}%3C%21{{urlencode:-- If your monster is a boss... -->}} since we know there's just one instance where the monster is a boss.
Similarly with the artifacts... all but one (Bottle of holy ale) will be | type = Normal, and one will be Bold. Since we know in advance, it's simple to {{urlencode: {{!}} type = Type}} each one correctly. And the single item of equipment, well, you'll see that the preloadparams are already setting that as |worn=Head, and it works well. :)
Summary: I think the right simplification is to concatenate the adjacent $2$3 parameters, make the parameter numbers sequential in the preload page, and use preloadparams to do the rest :) -- Djonni (talk) 17:25, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
Hmm... do we really want to do everything FOR the people creating articles, though? ...By which I mean, part of the idea here is to get people used to the idea of creating content, right? And part of that is getting comfortable with filling out infobox params and the like, which doing it all for them sort of robs them of... in a sense. No? That was my thought: Provide them with boilerplate and more-detailed-than-normal instructions for filling it out, but they'd still be the ones to fill it out. I dunno, that was my thinking, that it wouldn't be too pre-filled. But maybe I'm looking at it wrong.
But as far as the preloading, true: an entire infobox could be encoded into the URL as a single param, if we wanted to prepopulate it that customized. (Help:URL doesn't list any set character limit for links, but we should probably check that the longest ones work in the usual places.) -- FeRDNYC (talk) 00:42, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
Hmmm, you're quite right about showing people how to fill out the infobox. I'd sort of lost right of that a little in my enthusiasm to get everything organised. On consideration I think you're right, it is better to not fully pre-fill everything have some comments in the parameter fields. Will alter test links.
On which topic... With just over a day to go, I'd better put some focus on getting the preload links to a point we're happy with them so that they can go live soon! :) -- Djonni (talk) 09:56, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
The banner was the only thing that really needed (or even could) be up ahead of time — everything else can still be tweaked right down to the wire, really. Since the banner is live, I know that there's currently 1 day, 10 hours left to go, so I think you're in good shape. Really, things like edit links and (especially) preloading are above-and-beyond, so whatever of that gets done is great. Whatever doesn't is NBD, as long as it functions in whatever form it's in when the (Russian) new year rolls around. ...And then there's 30 days for people to find ways we never thought of that they can mess it up anyway. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 12:22, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
Heh. You're right. Thanks for reminding me, it was starting to feel like I was pressuring myself to sweep the decks on the Titanic. ;)
Though I must say, I'm starting to see the sense in separate preload types, considering the ridiculous length of the links. My latest draft link is this:{{CURRENTTIMESTAMP}}&action=edit&preload=JanuWiki_2019/Preload_with_infobox&preloadparams%5b%5d=Monster&preloadparams%5b%5d=monster%0A{{urlencode:{{!}} image =}}%20%3C%21{{urlencode:-- An image filename (e.g. Example_picture_name.jpg). If the filename doesn't exist, this gives you a link to upload it. -->}}%0A{{urlencode:{{!}} class =}}%20%3C%21{{urlencode:-- Monster's class. E.g., Humanoid, Troll, Giant mecha -->}}%0A{{urlencode:{{!}} description =}}%20%3C%21{{urlencode:-- Brief description of the monster -->}}%0A{{urlencode:{{!}} habitat =}}%20%3C%21{{urlencode:-- E.g., Subterranean swamps, Cookie jars, Behind waterfalls -->}}%0A{{urlencode:{{!}} latin =}}%20%3C%21{{urlencode:-- Optional Latin-style species name. E.g., Exterreri exsomnum -->}}%0A{{urlencode:{{!}} boss =}}%20%3C%21{{urlencode:-- Optional, 'yes' if this is a boss-monster -->}}%0A%20%20{{urlencode:{{!}} boss-type =}}%20%3C%21{{urlencode:-- Type can be: above, 1ab, 2ab, 3ab, tb, dig, quest, or dungeon. Look at Template:Monster for more info. -->}}&preloadparams%5b%5d={{urlencode:The '''name of monster in bold''' (''Latin name in italics'') is a [[monster]] that...

You could use headings to structure your article if you want, or just write text.

== Headings ==

You might write about:
* History or origins
* Life cycle
* How to avoid them
* How to beat them

Or anything you like.

Many monster articles end with this:


* Strength
* Strength
* Strength


* Weakness
* Weakness
* Weakness
}} Test monster quick-start]
Aside from the absurdity of it, it's cruel and unusual to make people editing the tables on JanuWiki 2019 wade through all that on row after row. So, gonna follow your first suggestion and make separately typed preloads. Far more workable, far more human readable and human editable, and far simpler. And a far more useful basis from which to build preloads for any reason in future. Thanks belatedly for the sage advice ;) -- Djonni (talk) 20:21, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
Though I must say, I'm starting to see the sense in separate preload types, considering the ridiculous length of the links TBH I've been sitting on my hands, trying not to harp on that, waiting for your come-to-Jesus moment there. I had a feeling you'd end up in the same place. Writing one of those links is usually all it takes. 😇 -- FeRDNYC (talk) 20:34, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
(I almost broke down earlier in this thread, when we were discussing the schedule/deliverables, and pointed out how much easier it is to tweak the preload content right up until the last minute if it's all in one template, instead of duplicated in N links. ...But consider that argument made, now.) -- FeRDNYC (talk) 20:37, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

"Feel free to ignore" bit...

I trimmed out a couple of newlines (wrapping things up against comments more) so that the preload would create fewer blank lines in the final output — I tried to balance that against readability/clarity, still.

But when it comes to the part that reads:

We've put a couple of things here that are often included in $1 articles to get you started, but feel free to ignore them and structure your article any way you like.

I wonder if that should be phrased something like, "feel free to delete them and...", or "...remove them..."? If they're "live" elements (visible in the output), writing around that stuff while still leaving it in the article isn't the best approach probably? -- FeRDNYC (talk) 20:13, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, very good note. Will amend. -- Djonni (talk) 20:22, 30 December 2018 (UTC)