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User talk:SourceRunner

9,214 bytes added, 03:31, 22 February 2019
Continuing the deletion/rename discussion: new section
: (Posting this here. In the Godville Private Message thread to you, and your GodWiki "Talk" page.) --[[User:SourceRunner|SourceRunner]] ([[User talk:SourceRunner|talk]]) 16:16, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
== Continuing the deletion/rename discussion ==
(I did want to respond more to this, but it was already archived at {{u|WardPhoenix}}'s talk page, so rather than continue it there...)
Going back to the Ku Klux Clown example, all available evidence now points to that monster having been deleted from the game itself way back in 2012. But because it already had its own article on the wiki, and it's appeared in [[List of Monsters]], in [[Boss-monsters]], in {{tlx|Navbox bosses}}, and possibly other places, we've essentially "kept it alive" for over '''six years''' after its deletion — in fact most of our information about it was added '''after''' it had already been removed from the game! (It wasn't added to [[List of Monsters]] until 2013; {{tlx|Navbox bosses}} wasn't created until October 2012.)<ref group="A">Not that I'm claiming that the people who made those edits ''knew'' it had been deleted, or even could have known. Hindsight often makes these things much clearer once the events are a little further in the past. I'm just illustrating the process by which outdated information can appear lifelike, even long after it's joined the legions of the undead. Limiting the spread of bad information is one of the major reasons behind Wikipedia's rule that it can never use '''itself''' as a reference, under any circumstances — in other words, "This other Wikipedia article says ____" is never sufficient justification for repeating that claim elsewhere on Wikipedia. An external source is always required.</ref> There are probably some who'd even argue that we should ''still'' be documenting it for posterity — which is an equally valid position, though I would personally disagree. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 19:08, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
<references group="A"/>
: Uh... how to say this... I remember the whole event, but can't substantiate it: "Ku Klux Clown" wasn't deleted from the game. It was changed over to "Mad Clown" after there was a big scuffle aboit it in the box of Ideabox that used to be devoted to voting about objectionable ideas (and then that box was deleted, because we kept misappropriating it for "arguments"). It kept all of the same stats, and retained its status as a mini-quest boss, it just got its name changed. If anything, that particular page needs some sort of redirect and an historical note put under "Mad Clown." Is this one of those "Be Bold" things? As a witness to that period of GV history, should I be doing that? --[[User:SourceRunner|SourceRunner]] ([[User talk:SourceRunner|talk]]) 20:20, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
:: I guess so, since not a lot of people could testimony about it. So please, be bold xD --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 20:28, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
::: Actually, I'd say please ''don't'' — IMHO things are fine the way they are, with the KKC excised from the Wiki. ("Renamed" to [[Mad Clown]], "Deleted and replaced with" [[Mad Clown]]... I don't see the difference between those two things, functionally.)
::: At the very least, please do read [[Talk:Boss-monsters#Ku Klux Clown status|this (wide-ranging) discussion]] first, where we hashed out what to do about the KKC article and list entries, and then did it. (We settled on making it all go away; that was a conscious decision by multiple editors. So I'd say let's reopen that discussion before acting, if anyone feels we should've gone a different path.) -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 21:08, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
:::: Actually, sorry, we discussed how to actually deal with the KKC [[Talk:Boss-monsters#Godwiki Editors and the Case of the Obliterated Monster With an Offensive Name|in a different section slightly farther down that talk page]]. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 21:13, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
::::: Not touching it. "Deleted" versus "Renamed" is a big deal in Ideabox (we've done pitched battle multiple times over proposals to delete {{u|GorgeousGeorge}}'s [[Holy Mass Murderer]], but never fought over proposals to rename it; the "Spring Cleaning" thread is nothing but snarls every time it comes active), but if it is not a big deal for GodWiki, no sweat off my brow. And given that the various incarnations of the [[Mad Clown]] seem to be a sore issue, I apologize for having prodded it inadvertently.
::::: Your bailiwick, your rules. --[[User:SourceRunner|SourceRunner]] ([[User talk:SourceRunner|talk]]) 21:49, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
{{outdent|::::::}} It's not, really, at all. And I need to apologize, because looking over the decision-making regarding the disposition of KKC, I see now that it was really only a discussion between {{u|Djonni}} and myself. (I had thought at least {{u|S624}} was involved as well, but clearly misremembered. In the earlier fact-finding, yes, but they didn't participate in the discussion of how to handle the remaining references to the monster.)
So, of the whole 2 people who made that decision, I'm the only one currently active, which hardly represents a compelling level of consensus. I was out of line to assert the current state as any sort of group decision that would need to be overridden/reviewed, or to use it as an attempt to stifle further discussion. You and {{u|WardPhoenix}} discussing it already represented twice as much consensus-seeking power as my lone voice represented on "my side" of the issue.
{{tqb|"Deleted" versus "Renamed" is a big deal in Ideabox (we've done pitched battle multiple times over proposals to delete {{u|GorgeousGeorge}}'s [[Holy Mass Murderer]], but never fought over proposals to rename it; the "Spring Cleaning" thread is nothing but snarls every time it comes active)|SourceRunner}}
See... now, I find that absolutely ''fascinating'', from a psychological/sociological standpoint. Because, in terms of ''Godville the game'', a monster's name is their '''entire''' existence. It's literally everything they're made of. There simply is no practical difference between renaming and removing/replacing a monster. If you were to delete monster A and add monster B in its place, vs. renaming A to B, it would be impossible for anyone to say after-the-fact ''which'' of those two actions you performed. The outcomes are completely equivalent. So the idea that one would be objected to so much more vehemently by some players (or some Ideabox participants or whatever) is surprising and interesting. It probably reveals a lot of things I'm not insightful enough to discern regarding the ways people think about these issues, or what motivates their passions and relative level of investment.
That issue (equivalency of outcome) also creates a tricky situation for the GodWiki, because here is where it suddenly ''does'' make a difference what's done with a game element. This is the place where the identity of game elements is fleshed out, where they're given backstory that expands their identity '''beyond''' just the name that represents their sole existence in-game. In addition, because we're reactive rather than proactive (by design and necessity), changes to the game will often lag in being reflected here, and will be reflected inaccurately by nature of the whole process.
Coming back to the issue at hand, when KKC was renamed to [[Mad Clown]], that wasn't reflected here because, presumably, nobody who was updating the wiki information was aware of the decision. And even if they ''could've'' been, simply doing a page-move to change the name of the KKC article to "Mad Clown" wouldn't really have made sense — the article contained information about the monster under its old name that simply made no sense when describing a monster under its '''new'' name. But, regardless, whether {{u|BlueStapler}} was aware of the rename or not, he created [[Mad Clown]] independent of the article on the KKC, and it was subsequently fleshed out with information about something called a "Mad Clown".
The KKC article, on the other hand, was simply ignored. It was left in place, and left included in things like [[List of Monsters]] and {{tlc|Navbox bosses}}, ''even though'' there was no longer any such monster present in the game. [[Mad Clown]] was ''added'' to all of those resources, even though it was arguably a duplicate since it was already present under its "old name", effectively.
So then six years later, the question becomes — became, really — one of: What do we do about that? Does it still make sense to keep the information around, when it's purely historical and of no use to current players? I laid out my thoughts on the subject [[Talk:Boss-monsters#Godwiki Editors and the Case of the Obliterated Monster With an Offensive Name|in that previous discussion regarding the KKC]], and {{u|Djonni}} and I were of the same mind on it. But we were the only two involved in that conversation, so there ''of course'' is plenty of room for debate there! But as I said, I do think the issues involved are slightly different in terms of "expanded universe" GodWiki content, than they are for in-game content itself. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 03:31, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

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