Difference between revisions of "Talk:Main Page"

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(Reply about Navbox Modification to navboxes)
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:: I thought the navbox template hadn’t been edited in years which is why I thought to overhaul it. That’s not the case, however. No need to change something that already has been updated and works (which is why I’m going to do the bold thing) — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 02:13, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
 
:: I thought the navbox template hadn’t been edited in years which is why I thought to overhaul it. That’s not the case, however. No need to change something that already has been updated and works (which is why I’m going to do the bold thing) — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 02:13, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
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::: Well, a couple things :)
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::: Firstly, I do see your point about capitalisation in navboxes, ''but''. Capitalisation changes infrequently in the game, and we consider capitalisation an important part of the Godwiki's accuracy. So the statement {{tqi|That way we don’t have to manually modify the navboxes each time the pages are moved and shuffled around}} actually doesn't make a lot of sense on this wiki: if the capitalisation of the navbox entry and the capitalisation of the page don't match, ''one is wrong'' and ''should'' be changed. In many places there are decayed about how something should be capitalised, but not here. If someone moves or corrects a page, then we do need to go around fixing capitalisation elsewhere that it's wrong, and that includes navboxes. That's what we did when you pointed out the Sun Dog issue. :)
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::: Don't get me wrong, I approve of the general idea of making stuff work smarter, but personally I think that in this case, all it would really achieve is hiding an error, making it less likely to be fixed. Since game items ''do'' have a canonical capitalisation, both the page titles and navbox should reflect this and match. Anything else is wrong.
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::: That said, I certainly invite improvements to templates and their documentation at any opportunity. But you'll often find there's clear reasons why some things are done some ways, such as {{tlf|navbox list}}:
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:::* Calling a sub-template allows for the entry of free text of necessary, because:
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:::* We don't have Lua, or string parser functions. So we have *very* limited techniques when it comes to intelligently figuring out what the content of a parameter is, other than a straight <code>{{#ifeq:</code> or <code>{{#switch:</code>. So,
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:::*No unlimited parameters here &mdash; any supported parameters must be hard-coded into templates.
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::: And to a Wikipedia user, the word {{tqi|archaic}} would be pretty accurate for any Templates here; on Wikipedia, even the simplest templates were converted to Lua long ago, and do things like prettifying section links,  that we straight-up can't do.
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::: That's not intended to discourage you from figuring out ways to improve the navbox templates, and of something needs overhauling then that's cool too. :)
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::: Oh, and another thing, heh. {{tqi|1) Either, we delete capitalization redirects.}} Nope, "''we''" don't. No user has deletion rights, and I would be surprised (delighted, and surprised) of the Devs would have the time to do a minor perfect like that, as we have ~8 years of accumulated not-deleted pages to wade through. If at some point in future a new admin is appointed to replace the long-gone Spode, then that would definitely be something on {{his or her|or=y}} agenda.
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::: Honestly, for Wikipedia users, this place has many <s>frustrations</s> quirks. It's somewhat ''less'' than a vanilla Wikimedia, as you've discovered. But switching off redirects in search results seems like an excellent thing to suggest (Ideabox->Other), as they are definitely a clutter! -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 03:35, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Revision as of 03:35, 18 November 2019

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Main Page article.
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Old and/or inactive discussions have been moved to the /Archive subpage.

Encouraging use of user talk pages

So, I've written this message, which I'm thinking of going around and (manually) placing on the User talk pages of everyone whose User: page is redirected to the main-article space, to point out that they won't receive talk-page message notifications unless they use their corresponding user talk page.

(This covers two types of users:)

  1. Those with user talk pages like User talk:BlueStapler, User talk:Hershey Almighty, etc. that are redirected to Talk:BlueStapler, Talk:Hershey Almighty, etc.
  2. Users like User:Hairplug4men, User:EJ Rose, etc. with redirected User pages, who have no redirect for their user talk page.

Basically it's about 50 people, I have a whole list. Most of them are probably not active users, but I'd plan to contact them all regardless. If they never see it, oh well. If they do, then great.

I just wanted to solicit feedback before I start.

With Special:ExpandTemplates, you can see what the message would look like when it's placed on Djonni's talk page (as an example). Click the following url:

https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=Special:ExpandTemplates&wpInput=%7b%7bsafesubst:User:FeRDNYC/User+Talk+Message%7d%7d&wpContextTitle=User+talk:Djonni

You'll see the formatted message at the bottom of the page. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 01:51, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

It seems some people keeps on redirect their user page to another page for some reasons, tried to leave messages but it don't seem to reach through. Well it's not really a serious issue but still happens. --WardPhoenix (talk) 16:03, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Honestly, though, that's fine and if people want to do it then more power to 'em. (There are all sorts of reasons why someone might want to, including intending their user page to be editable by other people. That's the reason Djonni (talkcontribs) specifically gives on his talk page.) If people want to keep a "god" page in the article namespace, as long as it's properly categorized no harm done. It's only when the corresponding talk page isn't redirected back to User talk: space that there's a down side. But it works just fine to maintain a non-User:Foo userpage at Foo, with a Talk:Foo page that redirects to User talk:foo, and doing that means they won't miss notifications. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 20:49, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, the example-message URL above was "down" for a couple of weeks, as I'd repurposed the page in question to do canvassing for the JanuWiki post-mortem and forgot to set it back afterwards. Anyway, it's working again now. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 16:54, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
I'm joining this conversation pretty late, and FeRDNYC hasn't been around the wiki since April... does anyone know if he went ahead with the plan? I think it's a very good idea, speaking from my own experience with an unredirected talk page! -- Djonni (talk) 09:03, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

I don't think he end up doing it, but I could be wrong.--WardPhoenix (talk) 13:29, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, alright. I found his draft at User:FeRDNYC/User Talk Message. I think it's a bit wordy personally, and gets a little lost in the weeds about the history of notifications on mediawiki sites, and needs a heavy edit. But I think his idea is really good and we should work up a better draft and go ahead with it.
It's a shame he isn't around at the moment (I'll leave him a talkback regardless!) because he went to the trouble of compiling a list of the affected users and we don't have it! I'll have to do that myself. -- Djonni (talk) 15:07, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Theming or Other Event Brainstorms

FeRDNYC makes a really good point above that two big events a year would be amazing, but that there's also opportunities for smaller events. With the basis that JanuWiki should now be an annual event, perhaps this should be a list of other event or drive ideas (big and small) that we could do, to figure out how we could space things to still get necessary stuff done. -- SourceRunner (talk) 17:37, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

  • JanuWiki 2020: Year of the WikiGnome/GodWikiStmas -- Big event. Next JanuWiki. Starts when? Ends January 31, 2020. Wrap-up ends February 29, 2020. Theming granularity? Process certainties?
  • Guidelines and Guide Resources Drive

(Please expand)

  • Easter Interlink Special -- Small event. EIS Eternal would be willing to sponsor a small wiki event during the Easter week or two weeks, with the object of adding links between pages on GodWiki (with reasonable reasons for doing so). One of the wiki strengths is the ability to create an ecosystem of lore, and the best way to explore that is following links between pages. So there could be the a specific event that GodWiki editors and content creators each chose a pair of pages to interlink, and write the lore between them that explains their relationships in the ecosystem and links the two. A report to the "Help Request" page when finished a pairing would make the pair's linker eligible for a reward of some sort after EIS checks that it has been done and does make sense.
  • Trans-Lore-Ation -- Small event. A lot of Godville lore is in the forums and tucked away in little sections of personal chronicles. As players, we in common tend to "know" this lore to be true, but not have it on GodWiki. How about a small event where people scavenger-hunt their favorite descriptions of towns, taverns, monsters, and Godville myths from the older parts of forums and the crannies of guild and personal pages, then add excerpts and possible links to the applicable pages in GodWiki.
  • Stub It Out -- Large event. Survey what articles with the "Stub" tag are still stubs, and remove tags where appropriate. Expand articles that are still stubs.
  • "Wherefore ART Thou?" -- Large event(?). Adding art to the "picture needed" category articles. Some artists need a long time to plan, so this may need to be a slow or multi-phase event.
Could be associated with the stub event maybe?


Sounds like there is some good ideas ready for the oven. I'd say that if you want to throw an event, just go for it. Create a page for it and allow us to help for the preparation.
Maybe we should make like a planner for upcomming events. By the way, talks about upcomming event may be more appropriate on the main talk
As for JanuWiki2020 (or GodWikiStmas maybe), I'd say we have the time to see it coming. Let's care of other event before.
--WardPhoenix (talk) 23:55, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
As another idea for a possible event (I don't even know if it would be considered big or small), Category:Pictures needed is up to 314 entries. That's 314 existing articles (primarily ones that use {{Monster}}, {{Artifact}}, or {{Equipment}}) which don't have an image to go with their subject. Trimming that list down a bit could also be a good way to get non-writers involved in creating wiki content. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 06:39, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
Oh, yes, and Category:Stubs is up to 552 articles that (in theory) need fleshing-out.
I say "in theory" because some of them may not really be stubs, having been expanded since they were tagged that way. In the "Advanced options" at the bottom of the appearance preferences is the option "Threshold for stub link formatting". It takes a length (in bytes) an article's source must be so it's not considered a stub. Links to all articles shorter than that threshold will be colored with a darker shade of red than the standard redlink coloring.
I currently have that preference set to 1000 bytes, and still some of the items in Category:Stubs are colored blue. It's certainly possible for an article that's over 1000 bytes long to also be a stub, but it's also possible that there's already plenty of content there and the stub designation is outdated / overzealous. I'd say maybe 10-15% of the category's members show non-stub link coloring. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 07:00, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
These are great ideas for events, WardPhoenix and FeRDNYC. I've added them to the bullet point list above, and tried to evaluate them as large or small, based on your descriptions. Please feel free to expand or change what's in the bullet list.
WardPhoenix, good suggestion about the planner/calendar for events. Is something like that possible in GodWiki, FeRDNYC? --SourceRunner (talk) 15:21, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

I'd say that if you want to throw an event, just go for it. Create a page for it and allow us to help for the preparation.
— User:WardPhoenix

I would agree with that, with one small adjustment: When you decide you definitely are throwing an event, creating a page for it would be the first step in preparing for it, and can serve as the formal announcement of the upcoming event.
I think Djonni worked up to JanuWiki 2019 exactly the right way (whether intentionally or by pure luck): He put out feelers on the forums and in a proposal here at Talk:Main Page, and used those discussions to solicit feedback and take the community's temperature on the idea. Then once he was sure there was sufficient interest that he could commit to definitely doing an event, he pulled the trigger on creating the event page, at which point he had someplace he could link to as a "more information" resource when he made the official announcement(s) about the upcoming event.
At any stage of planning, there's always the possibility that an event could end up getting cancelled for lack of involvement or interest. Things happen. But that risk can be minimized by getting at least a core team on board before putting a lot of work into constructing an event framework for a "maybe" or "possible" event. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 14:43, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Moved this to the main page as it is more appropriate place and also easier to reach (yeah I'm lazy to reach for januwiki page every time on my phone). By the way I think the EIS event would be quite interesting, and as easter is coming i'd suggest we start thinking about it if you really want to kick it. On a side note, I don't think a guideline event would be appropriate. Guidelines are supposed to be wrote by experimented and active users for beginners. That's more something we have to work on with experimented users I'd say. -- WardPhoenix (talk) 23:02, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

That's a fair point, re: the Guidelines. I guess it depends how broadly you define "event". Certainly, you're right, guidelines-updates aren't the sort of free-for-all activity where we'd put out a call to the entire Godville user community for participation. Maybe "an effort", or "a sprint" (to employ some of my least-favorite software development jargon), among those experienced users.
That being said...
  1. A lot of what's lacking in the current Guidelines articles just comes down to formatting, copyediting, structure, and layout fixes — things that could be done by almost anyone, especially with guidance, as there's no real expertise needed. (However, as they also need major content updates, they're definitely not entirely fixable by casual editors alone. But they could be vastly improved.)
  2. Because (as you say) the target audience for the Guidelines is inexperienced users, in my experience it's a huge mistake to write them without any input from users at or near that level. One of the things I learned in software development is that you never have the senior programmer, the one who wrote most of the code and knows every aspect of the software inside-and-out, write the instruction manual. If they try, 90% of the time it'll end up being unintelligible to the "average users" it's supposed to be written for.

    (It's the same reason you NEVER sign up for a freshman-level "Intro to Whatever" class if it's taught by that department's most senior, most published, most brilliant researcher. Very few people whose knowledge of a topic is at that level will be capable of "dumbing things down" sufficiently that they can effectively teach it to students who have virtually no background in the subject. Everything will go right over their heads.)

The two trickiest problems in documentation don't have anything to do with knowledge or accuracy of information: The first is figuring out exactly where your target audience is at in terms of background knowledge and skill level, so that you know which things need to be explained, vs. what they probably already know so you don't waste their time repeating it. The other problem, then, is being able to explain things at that level, without leaving out any of the information they need because it's just implicitly assumed or seems "obvious" to someone with more experience.
...But, all that being said I agree that Guidelines updates wouldn't make sense as an "event" in the JanuWiki mold, where we try to solicit come-one-come-all participation from as many users as possible. Heck, they may not be a very good fit for any sort of organized "group effort" at all — our best bet may be for someone to eventually just dive in and start making Bold changes to define an updated, improved structure for the content. Even if they only update a single Guideline article, once there's an example to work off of, other editors can pitch in to apply the same changes to the rest of the Guidelines. (That sort of example-based, follow-the-leader model is how most content-wide changes propagate here, really. Djonni created the {{hero or heroine}} template set, but he's responsible for only a handful of edits that applied those templates to article content.) -- FeRDNYC (talk) 14:43, 27 March 2019 (UTC)


The Monstrous Recapitalisation of 2019

So, the way the game handles capitalisation after a hyphen in a monster name has changed recently. The Ideabox has always automatically capitalised monster ideas, but it didn't historically treat a hyphen as a word break, and it does now... Mostly. A word after a hyphen will be capitalised if it is at least 3 (or maybe it's 4) characters long. This is an attempt to make sure that articles and short prepositions in hyphenated words are not capitalised, according to traditional title caps rules. And, of course, ER editors can manually change capitalisation in cases where that simple rule hasn't quite got something right, as they always could.

At the same time, existing monster names in the game have been recapitalised to match normal English typography. The recapitalisation seems to follow these rough rules:

  1. Where something after a hyphen was already capitalised, it has stayed that way (the only changes are to previously lowercase letters immediately after a hyphen)
  2. Articles and prepositions after a hyphen remain lowercase, as they would in a title (e.g. Monster-in-Law), but not entirely consistently (see point 1, e.g. Missing-In-Action Figure)
  3. Word fragments, e.g. Arrgh-onaut, remain uncapitalised, but not entirely consistently (see point 1, e.g. Flame-Ingo)
  4. Otherwise, words after a hyphen have been capitalised pretty consistently.

This post here is essentially to signal that there will be some monster pages that need to be moved to their new capitalisation, and edits being made to List of Monsters as well as monster articles as required. I'm going to do a lot of this, but even taking advantage of some extra external resources I probably won't catch everything, and there's a chance I might move or correct things to a wrong capitalisation.

If you see a hyphenated monster name in the game, and that monster is capitalised differently on the Godwiki, then we need to fix it! It can be a bit of work to make those changes, though, so if you spot something wrong but don't have the opportunity (or perhaps knowledge) to do it yourself, please leave a note about it (right here, or on the monster article's talk page if that's easier) and another editor should get the changes done mañana.

That said... if you think you don't have the skills you're probably wrong. Be Bold, try to do it yourself, and if someone can see you're struggling or not getting it right they'll clean up after you. No muss, no fuss, no worries. It's really not more work for an experienced editor to fix a mistake someone else makes, than for that editor to do the work in the first place, so you're never creating more work for someone else!

A brief checklist for myself and others:

  • If the monster has an article:
    • The article must be moved to the correct name. (Looking at original article, the "More" menu in the top right has the "Move" action. Is this also true on mobile? Can't recall and can't currently check.)
    • Text in article body corrected as needed. {{Monster}} infobox should be fine, as it uses the {{PAGENAME}} magic word by default, but double-check for |title= parameters or unusual description text.
  • List of Monsters to be updated.
  • Check for a relevant navbox and update. (A text search will only include the main namespace by default, but hitting 'Everything' or 'Advanced' in the results will allow searching of templates.)
  • If time permits, search for text in pages with the old capitalisation. Put quotes "..." around the name to get the right results. (Two birds with one stone: correcting the capitalisation and an opportunity to increase interlinking if the monster has an article.)
  • If time permits (lowest priority though, I think), update Omnibus List. The main users of the Omnibus are crossword solvers, to whom capitalisation is irrelevant.

(Please feel free to add to or alter that checklist if I've missed something.)

Obviously, this is a fairly low priority and on-going project, so it'll take a while and a bit of work to get done together. :) -- Djonni (talk) 08:44, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Put monsters' name here if you can't update

JanuWiki 2020 Ideas and Planning

Heya once again! I did a bit of poking around in the JanuWiki 2019 page, and couldn't find any plans for what the next theme is gonna be. It never hurts to start planning early, so I kinda decided to start gathering a few ideas. After looking around the internet for some potential New Year themes, I have three potential suggestions:

  1. A glasses/vision-related theme. It's going to be 2020 - it shall be the year of perfect vision and clarity!
  2. Something related to time. Similar reason as the first one (mostly because I already anticipate all of the 'hindsight is 20/20' puns that the year will bring), but there's also the whole 'marking of another year going by'. Sounds a bit on the melodramatic side, though.
  3. Chinese zodiac time! Now, there isn't exactly a whole lot of potential rodent-themed articles on here (2020 is the year of the Rat, after all), but I did some cross-referencing! Apparently there are Chinese elemental years too, and next year's element is going to be Metal. So, Metal/Rat articles?

I know it's really early, but I really want to help the next JanuWiki be like the first one (cuz seriously, the sheer number of content was really amazing + fun to read)! What do you guys think? --Arcanedreamer (talk) 02:47, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Arcanedreamer, I actually think that those are pretty great ideas! I for one have try to give JanuWiki 2020 any serious thought, but using a 20/20 theme is a brilliant thought!
One (really great) thing that happened with JanuWiki 2019 is that as the event rolled on we had to expand and extend it to new themes, bring more ideas into the event, and keep offering don't exciting new ideas for people who just didn't get inputted enough by the first tranche of suggestions. So having a handful of interesting, related-ish, but quite diverse options is really valuable. I think working with the 20/20 concepts you've suggested first (vision, hindsight, foresight, time) is an excellent focal point (pun intended), with metal and rodent articles tucked up our sleeves for when/if we need to grow the theme. For 2019, we started all about beer, and from brainstorming and adapting we added bosses, lions, tigers, and bears over the month. So we've seen that a diverse and interesting collection of ideas can really help catch the interest of folks who might only like one part of it.
Later today I'll do some surveying to see what missing or stubbed articles will be captured by these themes, and that will give us a more concrete notion of how they would look for an event! -- Djonni (talk) 08:38, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
Themes' Ideas looks good. I wonder if doing a survey on the forums could be usefull to see if people would be willing to participate in the event, and what they think could be improved compared to previous ones. --WardPhoenix (talk) 18:33, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
I'm actually really happy you guys like my ideas! So, thing is, I already did a bit of artwork in anticipation of JanuWiki 2020. I'm perfectly fine with doing a couple more items in order to make the event look even better, but I'd like to know ahead of time if that's okay. And if so, maybe let me know ASAP if there's any specific items you guys would want so that I don't have to do a rush job at the last minute? --Arcanedreamer (talk) 19:49, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
So, I got around to that thing I said I would do yesterday... I've started a survey of possible articles for the two theme groups (20/20 and Metal Rat) at Djonni/Shared sandbox (note that I've intentionally kept that out of my User: area so that everybody can tinker with, improve or extend it). I was pretty inclusive about what I captured for the 20/20 theme, and only just started on the Metal Rat articles (I've saved it in progress, I'll carry on and on anon. 🎵🎶Alalalalalonglonglilonglonglong, sing it🎶🎵
I definitely agree WardPhoenix, we should take this to the forums, but before w're ready to do that we should have a very clear idea of what the theme ideas we're presenting are, I think, so that folks there have some concrete, fully though out and fleshed out things to discuss and contribute to. Let's discuss and refine the articles and concepts a little more together here first!
And for readers who are following this but have not yet joined the conversation — please share your thoughts, good, bad, or whatever they may be!
Arcanedreamer, whoa, I'm pretty impressed by your artwork there! Personally I think that's a great piece of decoration for the main page announcement, and will probably be useful in places on the main event page too, fantastic work! Something that I discovered doing the theme survey — Did You Know that there's actually a Steel Rat monster in Godville? I feel like the Steel Rat would make an excellent mascot for JanuWiki 2020, regardless of how the theming conversation goes, what do you guys think? Your geometric artwork there is excellent, Arcanedreamer, I suspect a Steel Rat is much harder. Do you think it's within your scope? There will probably be some reuse-permitted images we could use, so it's entirely up to you! :) -- Djonni (talk) 14:45, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
Djonni, I hear a mild challenge in there. I shall accept and prove your skepticism wrong! In all seriousness, though, it sounds like a fun way to push at my pixel art boundaries (I've been doing nothing but inanimate objects so far, ehehe....)! Also, two things - should I go ahead and place whatever JanuWiki 2020 art I end up creating in the sandbox? And are there any other art requests? --Arcanedreamer (talk) 15:07, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

It looks like from Djonni/Shared sandbox that there is already quite the amount of articles found within both them (good work finding them by the way). So now, what? Do we use the forum to see if there is people interested in a potential event before throwing anything and thinking of the form JanuWiki 2020 could take? --WardPhoenix (talk) 13:58, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Sorry guys, been a busy week at work! Arcanedreamer, your Steel Rat is great! I'm very impressed! :D
Yeah, WardPhoenix, if you guys are happy with the lists at Djonni/Shared sandbox then we should probably take it to the forum. I'll create a dedicated talk topic for JanuWiki 2020 ideas and planning, so that folks don't feel like they need to wade through months of discussion above to get up to speed. -- Djonni (talk) 15:48, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
Well, I just posted an offensively long message on the forums (Godville Forum topic 308, post 1274998) so if anyone's masochistic enough to actually read it, welcome to the conversation! 😅 -- Djonni (talk) 17:38, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
Bold of you to assume that I would think reading a long forum post is a masochistic action. In all seriousness, I think you did a good job doing an early advertisement for the event! Hopefully it'll attract old and new participants alike~! --Arcanedreamer (talk) 23:47, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
So, with the new Book of Creation update, should we consider a chance in focus to all things related to words, books, and writing? -- Djonni (talk) 16:53, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
Maybe? I mean, on one hand, I think we're fine with the themes we already have - look at how many articles that are already available! On the other hand, people tend to be a lot more hyped up for new things, so there's a pretty good chance that more people would be interested. In the end, I guess it just depends on how big you're expecting this next JanuWiki is gonna be. --Arcanedreamer (talk) 02:33, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I've done a rapid survey of book and word themed items at Djonni/Shared sandbox#Books and words. The main takeaway from that is that there's essentially no monsters (the most popular creator category by far) and a huuuge list of artifacts that don't offer the same variety and breadth that the other categories do.

It might still be nice for us to do something about books and words with the Book of Creation update, but I think making it a part of JanuWiki isn't going to create a lot of excitement.

And to answer that question, Arcanedreamer, I am anticipating that this JanuWiki will be a little smaller than the last one. But we won't know until we see for ourselves. :) -- Djonni (talk) 06:49, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Decoration Questions and Art Requests

Alrighty, so I noticed that the navboxes for the past GodWiki vents tend to have a neat little picture instead of a simple dot separating the different articles. I'm not entirely sure how that works - is there a way to place our own pics (I.E. some specialized JanuWiki pixel art icons) in there, or are we limited to a preset group of images? I was about to start working on a few icon designs before realizing that I didn't know if we're able to even use them. --Arcanedreamer (talk) 05:10, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Well when I made {{navbox items}} I built in quite a bit of flexibility for exactly this kind of reason! :) Using the |bullet= parameter, you can set the separator between list items to anything you want. We usually use emoji characters for this, which has benefits and drawbacks, but there's no reason why we can't use an image!
The image that we use in the {{god}} template for this: GodArcanedreamer  is rendered as 17x17 pixels, making it just a little taller than the line on most screens. In the wiki software used to run the GodWiki, there's no way to make the size of an image dynamic in any way, so we will have to decide on pixel dimensions to use (and the wiki doesn't have support for any vector image types either, so a small bullet-sized image won't stretch or shrink well on a lot of screens).
If you think you can come up with some cool tiny bullet images for navbox use, I think that would be great! We can do a bit of experimenting and see how well it works. I'll leave choices about size up to you, but it might be wise to aim for something that's around 12x12 to 8x8, and using transparency if you don't want it to be a square block :)
To test out how it looks in a navbox list, use this:
{{navbox items|bullet=[[File:Filename.ext]]|List item one|List item two|List item three}}
Which should give you something like this:
List item one Godicon.png List item two Godicon.png List item three
If you want to play with different render sizes, you can put |12x12px or |10x10px etc in the image options like [[File:...|12x12px]]. :) -- Djonni (talk) 06:31, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Call for feedback on new {{Usergod}} template

Notey.png Feedback required

Hello all!

This is an official call for anyone interested to test and give feedback on the draft of the new {{Usergod}} template. If you want to get stuck in straight away, you can leap to the fully documented draft at User:Djonni/Template sandbox.

To begin testing the new template straight away, if you already have the Usergod template on your page you can simply replace {{Usergod with {{User:Djonni/Template sandbox to see how it will look with the new template.

In short, the {{Usergod}} and {{Usergoddess}} templates haven't been updated since 2013, and they really need it. We have modernised and made pretty all of the {{Monster}}, {{Artifact}}, {{Equipment}}, etc. infobox templates, and with the lessons we've learned there, it's time to get to work on the big ones: {{Usergod}}, {{Hero}}, and {{Guild}}. This is the first of those to hit the bench.

In the redesign I have tried to keep to several principles:

  • Don't mess up existing pages. The Usergod template is currently used on 203 Godwiki pages. Many of those pages have made very specific choices about colours, styles, backgrounds, etc. This is why, by default, the new Usergod template will be transparent: the old template has been transparent for over 8 years, and it should be entirely up to you, the template user, how your Usergod infobox looks. Which leads to:
  • Allow for a large amount of customisation, as simply as possible. I have investigated quite deeply (I think) how those existing 203 users of the template have used it, and tried to look at what they wanted but couldn't get from the existing template. The replacement has a large and flexible suite of colouring, styling, and creative options there to use, all of which are completely optional. It can be as elaborate and detailed as you like, or just a quick, simple summary of your most interesting and important features. Whatever you want.
  • Try not to force any decisions onto you, including gender norms. Don't want to be called either God or Goddess? No problem, set |title=The Great and Powerful, or =The Divine, or =Furmeister General, or anything you want. Don't want your minion to be called Hero or Heroine? Great, |herolabel=Champion, or =Minion, or =Kōhai, or whatever you like. If you see a way to make the template more customisable, please say so, and if I can realistically do so, I shall.
  • Expect the unexpected. I have not tried to guess everything you'll want to do with the template. Instead, I've tried to make the template capable of doing anything you might want. There are options to create fully customised sections of the infobox, which you could use to: embed your hero(ine)'s details into it; prominently feature forum roleplaying character sheets; proudly display your pets, ark, achievements, skills, pet peeves, anything. People really tried to get creative with the old Usergod template, and it just didn't allow them to. So, this one does.

As implied above, updating {{Usergod}} is phase one; after the new Usergod is finalised and put in place, phase two will be {{Hero}}. Depending on the feedback received, my observations of how the new templates are used (or not used), and the level of interest, phase two may also involve designing some additional related templates: {{Pet}}, {{Lab boss}}, {{Ark}}. Then finally, after a lot of feedback and testing, the {{Guild}} template will be updated. This will be the most difficult and controvertial, as it's the most heavily used template on the Godwiki (at this moment, there are exactly 500 pages using the Guild template), and for many people, their guild page is the only thing they interact with on Godwiki.

Feedback, discussion, and questions about the new template can be given right here, or at User talk:Djonni/Template sandbox. You'll also find some discussion and feedback from early testers at User talk:Djonni and User talk:WardPhoenix/Sandbox if you're interested.

I'm looking forward to hearing from folks about everything that's wrong with the new Usergod template, so that we can make it better together! -- Djonni (talk) 08:43, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Double Redirect Page Issue

After wandering through the red link page list, I stumbled upon the double redirect page. While I did fix one of them, the second one I'm afraid cannot be fixed without intervention by a database operator. The page in question has the title "Godville_(Town) " (which is the same as the Godville (Town) page just with an extra non-breaking white space at the end of it.)

The problem is that MediaWiki internally strips the extra white space off the end of the page title before actually doing anything with it. This means that from the front end, you can't access the erroneous Godville_(Town) page at all. From what I was able to recreate on my own private wiki, the only way to fix it is going into the "page" table in the database and looking for a row with "Godville_(Town) " or "476f6476696c6c655f28546f776e29c2a0" in the "page_title" column. (The "47...a0" is the url encoded version of "Godville_(Town) " which my wiki automatically changed it to after I manually edited a page on my private wiki to have that name.) A wiki/database operator would have to go in and manually change the page title of the relevant row to remove the trailing space so that we can actually edit/delete the erroneous page, or something. I've spent the past few hours trying to find a solution online and by experimenting on my own wiki and the only way I've been able to fix such an error on my wiki is by manually editing the database.

You can spot the two pages when you search for "Godville (Town)" (eg: this search)

It's not exactly a big problem, but, on the search results it means that two identical "Godville (Town)" pages are listed, one of them redirecting to Godville (Disambiguation) and the other being the page proper. It's more of an annoyance factor than an issue. Though, the million dollar question is how such pages actually managed to come into existence since MediaWiki sanitizes page titles...

Other pages with this issue:

Page Redirect? Search link Encoded equivalent
3D Interface redirect search 33445f496e74657266616365c2a0
Equipment redirect search 45717569706d656e74c2a0
Gold bricks redirect search 476f6c645f627269636b73c2a0
Grayscaled Dragon redirect search 477261797363616c65645f447261676f6ec2a0
Ideabox NOT a redirect search 49646561626f78c2a0
Lightasber-Toothed Tiger redirect search 4c6967687473616265722d546f6f746865645f5469676572c2a0
Pets redirect search 50657473c2a0
Probability redirect search 50726f626162696c697479c2a0
Temple redirect search 54656d706c65c2a0
Voice of god redirect search 566f6963655f6f665f676f64c2a0
Trollbridge redirect search 54726f6c6c627269646765c2a0
Godville (Town) redirect search 476f6476696c6c655f28546f776e29c2a0

I found these by searching the source of the all pages special page for "%C2%A0" in the web developer/inspector console in Firefox. these are only the ones in the main namespace, I did see that some pages in the Talk namespace were also affected though. Perhaps I should go in and comb through the talk pages to see which ones are affected in that namespace too if this is actually reported as a bug?

I'm not sure where to go with this, but I felt I couldn't just do nothing after researching it this much. From what I could see in the archive, should I just submit a bug report via the feedback menu in-game linking to this topic? Also, sorry if this topic is a bit bulky or long, or not in the right place -- Emptysora (talk) 04:26, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

That's the same issue already talked about at Talk:Ideabox. Basically, as you said, there is nothing we can do about it without admin access. I dunno if it was already reported as a bug to the admin, I'll leave that question to the oldest member. As for the why, those "phantom clone" exists, I'd take a guess and say they're probably artifacts of the starting years of the GodWiki, where countless of articles where created, and probably a lot of mistakes with it. --WardPhoenix (talk) 13:42, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Sorry I didn't reply to this sooner, I'm travelling for work at the moment and spending most of my time in an environment with no internet access. :)
Emptysora, I think it's a very good idea to report this to the Devs under the Ideabox->Other category. When submitting reports like this to the devs, be very, very concise. Focus on a short description of the issue, and a clear action to resolve it. If they have any questions or need clarification they'll PM you on Godville (they ask me to explain more detail when I submit bug reps, other, and terrible awesome ideas all the time).
If I understand correctly, the table above that's introduced with Other pages with this issue: means that you've found other malformed page titles in the Godwiki? I added an {{anchor|malformed-pages}} so that if you need to you can link directly to https://wiki.godvillegame.com/Main_Page#malformed-pages when you message the Devs about it.
I've noticed that same issue with the Godville (town)&nbsp; page as well, and it's been somewhere on my mental list of stuff to dig into and chase down to report, so I'm absolutely delighted you've looked into it and really done the research to figure it out. I'm a massive dork and I really love bug hunting, which explains why I have 19 accepted bug reports in my Ideabox->Approved list, haha. I see that you have 1 Gratitude point, if you report this and it's fixed you'll earn yourself another one! 😄 -- Djonni (talk) 21:22, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Just sent the bug report. I like finding bugs myself, so when I see things like this, I don't usually rest until I've figured out what is wrong. I'm pretty sure my gratitude point is from a different bug report (the extra "%" at the end of the "you need XX%% godpower" message on mobile). Well, all we can do is wait. if they use software like PhpMyAdmin (which my private wiki has) it'll be pretty easy to find and modify the pages, otherwise they'd have to use an SQL console. I noticed that whenever such pages are forcibly edited in, creating/deleting/moving a page (anything that updates the "page" table) causes those titles to become hex encoded. I basically suggested they be renamed on the pattern of "*_(old)" so we could go in later and deal with them if need be. I doubt we'll keep the pages since the last time they have been modified is in like 2010 / 2011. I find it funny, just a few days ago, I was too shy to even create my own user page, and now I'm doing this. Thanks Djonni and WardPhoenix. -- Emptysora (talk) 21:54, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Great work, Emptysora, I'm glad we have your sharp eyes and detective skills on the case. In my experience, if a bug rep is going to be addressed, it will be done quite promptly, usually within a few days. If it hasn't been fixed in a couple of months, we can try reworking the report to be more succinct, or persuasive, or have a clearer resolution and call to action, and resubmit. But I expect we'll see this old problem cleared up pretty promptly now thanks to your work! -- Djonni (talk) 21:58, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, if it doesn't go through, I'm going to email the support address directly since email can support images. Images can't be sent via the bug report form after all. That's kind of why I put the search links in there too. I hope it's resolved soon, that #PhantomPage as it was called on the Talk:Ideabox page was bugging me. -- Emptysora (talk) 22:03, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Well, I guess I have good news. The bug report I submitted is listed in my "approved submissions" page, and I can't find the "phantom" pages anymore. Seems like I have to admit that the devs are awesome (although, we already know that), and thank them. Problem Resolved. -- Emptysora (talk) 17:11, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Modification to navboxes

Before I go ahead and do this, I wanted some opinions on this idea (which certainly won’t be my last). It’s regarding the navboxes. With the way they are set up right now, on larger navboxes, like the Pets one, it is hard to see where the current page is listed in the navbox.

This can be a bit trying, for example, if you’re trying to see if your pet has an ability from the navbox. What I’m basically suggesting is a slight rewrite of the navboxes such that the links be changed to a template call like {{lnk|Link|Display}} instead of [[Link|Display]]. The “Lnk” template would then detect if the current page is the linked article, and either embolden or link the text based on that. A working demo is in my sandbox and shown below.

It would look like this:

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What are your thoughts? — Emptysora (talk) 01:53, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Errr..... I don't know if I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say but... Isn't that already the case? I mean when you are in a page which is included in navbox, the page name within the navbox is black instead of blue, which make it very noticeable.
If the link is not blacked (which is the case of the sun dog in pets for example) it's because the link in the navbox is actually a redirect and not the real page article (which is an error obviously, but I think it's actually the Sun dog that may need to be moved to Sun Dog).. -- WardPhoenix (talk) 09:46, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
Nevermind, Sun dog is actually the good capitalization, fixed the navbox link and the text of the pet. --WardPhoenix (talk) 10:34, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
So it apparently does do that, weird, it didn’t do it for me. However I guess that brings me to a different thing I wanted to bring up. I don’t feel like we should be having redirect pages for alternate capitalization. That’s not the point of a redirect. These redirects show up in the search autocomplete, which is annoying sometimes (try typing in “boss” and count how many unique pages are there). If a redirect has to be created just to achieve this, the template really should be modified. That’s not to mention the way that Navbox handles this linking process (See Template:Navbox items, it’s archaic. Ie: what if we have more than a hundred items in a Navbox? The hundredth and so on fails to be displayed. Not to mention, having to call a sub template like that doesn’t seem that intuitive. I guess, what I’ll do, is modify the Navbox template in my sandbox, and update here when I’m done for feedback.
Capitalization should not be a factor in whether or not the link is bold or linked. — Emptysora (talk) 20:34, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
I don't have the first clue about the behind the scenes creation of templates so staying away from that but seems that Sun Dog is the correct capitalization so undid the above change from WardPhoenix, moved pages & redirects around so that Sun Dog is the main page & the only things that link to Sun dog are deity, champion or guild pages. Both the pet & dogs navbox both show bold when on the Sun Dog page now. -- S624 (talk) 21:45, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── It does seems that there is inconsistency between how the pets are nammed between diary entry and superhero page, which is why I assumed the false capitalization. I left a bug report about that to admins. Thanks for correcting S624. As for the redirects and navboxes, I don't really understand what you are trying to say there Emptysora. Many of those redirect page are born from people writing an already existing article or from recapitalization / typo / name change/ Obi-Wan Kenobi. And since we can't delete those pages, well they are here. Better to have redirect on them instead of blank pages. And I don't see the link you make between redirect and navboxes, they are differents things, abd ideally, a link in the navbox should lead to the correct page, not the redirect one. --WardPhoenix (talk) 21:58, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

No, what I’m saying is that capitalization shouldn’t matter in whether or not the page is linked or emboldened, eg: if the box says “Sun Dog” it should be bold on Sun dog and Sun Dog, even if one of those pages is a redirect. (which it currently doesn’t do). This is important because if the capitalization of the content page’s title ever changes, it breaks the navboxes. (EG: if Sun dog was moved to Sun Dog, or vice versa) I agree that the link in the navbox *should* point to the page and not a redirect, but whether or not it does shouldn’t break the template.
In other words, I’m trying to change the templates such that in-game capitalization does not dictate how we have to list things in navboxes. It’s just less of a chance for confusion. Arguably, the fact that this did confuse me, might be proof that is a decent thing to consider.
As for the redirects, I use Wikipedia a lot (which uses an extension called CirrusSearch) so they have redirects hidden from search results. I assumed this was default behavior in MW (which clearly isn’t the case). So, I doubt there’s a reasonable fix we can do to resolve that:
1) Either, we delete capitalization redirects. Search suggestions won’t display the five redirects all to Boss-monsters. But, if someone typed “Boss-M” Boss-monsters won’t appear. That leads into what you said about those pages existing because people created them assuming they didn’t exist. Ie: the pages are liable to be created again, ruining the point of deleting them. 2) We somehow manage to convince the admins to install an extension like CirrusSearch (which odds of happening, I bet, are 0%). This would transparently hide the redirects resolving *both* issues. This implies: 3) We do nothing. The redirects that clog the search suggestions potentially continue to either annoy or confuse readers, but since the redirects *are* present, nobody will get confused about whether or not a page exists.
Apparently, MW (until 1.23) used to have a setting you could change to hide redirects from search results. I’d love to hear why they thought it was brilliant to force wikis to always have redirects included instead of leaving srredirects and defaulting it to true.
Anyway, I’ll modify the templates in my sandbox and show you what I mean. We can discuss that after that. — Emptysora (talk) 23:59, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
I just modified Template:Navbox items/Documentation adding in example code for a slight hack to get 100+ items in a Navbox list (multiple items template calls, the second and subsequent omitting the first unnamed parameter) so, I guess we can ignore that one. I’m only going to try to do the bold thing. That way we don’t have to manually modify the navboxes each time the pages are moved and shuffled around.
I thought the navbox template hadn’t been edited in years which is why I thought to overhaul it. That’s not the case, however. No need to change something that already has been updated and works (which is why I’m going to do the bold thing) — Emptysora (talk) 02:13, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
Well, a couple things :)
Firstly, I do see your point about capitalisation in navboxes, but. Capitalisation changes infrequently in the game, and we consider capitalisation an important part of the Godwiki's accuracy. So the statement That way we don’t have to manually modify the navboxes each time the pages are moved and shuffled around actually doesn't make a lot of sense on this wiki: if the capitalisation of the navbox entry and the capitalisation of the page don't match, one is wrong and should be changed. In many places there are decayed about how something should be capitalised, but not here. If someone moves or corrects a page, then we do need to go around fixing capitalisation elsewhere that it's wrong, and that includes navboxes. That's what we did when you pointed out the Sun Dog issue. :)
Don't get me wrong, I approve of the general idea of making stuff work smarter, but personally I think that in this case, all it would really achieve is hiding an error, making it less likely to be fixed. Since game items do have a canonical capitalisation, both the page titles and navbox should reflect this and match. Anything else is wrong.
That said, I certainly invite improvements to templates and their documentation at any opportunity. But you'll often find there's clear reasons why some things are done some ways, such as {{navbox list}}:
  • Calling a sub-template allows for the entry of free text of necessary, because:
  • We don't have Lua, or string parser functions. So we have *very* limited techniques when it comes to intelligently figuring out what the content of a parameter is, other than a straight {{#ifeq: or {{#switch:. So,
  • No unlimited parameters here — any supported parameters must be hard-coded into templates.
And to a Wikipedia user, the word archaic would be pretty accurate for any Templates here; on Wikipedia, even the simplest templates were converted to Lua long ago, and do things like prettifying section links, that we straight-up can't do.
That's not intended to discourage you from figuring out ways to improve the navbox templates, and of something needs overhauling then that's cool too. :)
Oh, and another thing, heh. 1) Either, we delete capitalization redirects. Nope, "we" don't. No user has deletion rights, and I would be surprised (delighted, and surprised) of the Devs would have the time to do a minor perfect like that, as we have ~8 years of accumulated not-deleted pages to wade through. If at some point in future a new admin is appointed to replace the long-gone Spode, then that would definitely be something on his or her agenda.
Honestly, for Wikipedia users, this place has many frustrations quirks. It's somewhat less than a vanilla Wikimedia, as you've discovered. But switching off redirects in search results seems like an excellent thing to suggest (Ideabox->Other), as they are definitely a clutter! -- Djonni (talk) 03:35, 18 November 2019 (UTC)