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== Templates for he-or-she in articles ==
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__TOC__
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== Encouraging use of user talk pages ==
  
I had a bad idea, which I didn't think through, and took too far. So, here you go: a set of templates to allow The [[Great Random]] to choose the gender of the pronouns in your GodWiki writing!
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So, I've written [[User:FeRDNYC/User Talk Message|this message]], which I'm thinking of going around and (manually) placing on the User talk pages of everyone whose User: page is redirected to the main-article space, to point out that they won't receive talk-page message notifications unless they use their corresponding user talk page.
  
In brief:
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(This covers two types of users:)
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# Those with user talk pages like [[User talk:BlueStapler]], [[User talk:Hershey Almighty]], etc. that are redirected to [[Talk:BlueStapler]], [[Talk:Hershey Almighty]], etc.
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# Users like [[User:Hairplug4men]], [[User:EJ Rose]], etc. with redirected User pages, who have no redirect for their user talk page.
  
* {{Tlx|He-or-She}}: You'll get either <code>He</code> or <code>She</code>, chosen at <small>kinda-</small>random.
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Basically it's about 50 people, I have a whole list. '''Most''' of them are probably not active users, but I'd plan to contact them all regardless. If they never see it, oh well. If they do, then great.
* {{Tlx|he-or-she}}: You'll get either <code>he</code> or <code>she</code>, chosen at <small>kinda-</small>random.
 
  
If you're with me so far, I'll assume you can extrapolate to understand the following templates too:
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I just wanted to solicit feedback before I start.
  
* {{Tlx|Him-or-Her}} and {{Tlx|him-or-her}}
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With [[Special:ExpandTemplates]], you can see what the message would look like when it's placed on {{u|Djonni}}'s talk page (as an example). Click the following url:
* {{Tlx|His-or-Hers}} and {{Tlx|his-or-hers}}
 
* {{Tlx|Hero-or-Heroine}} and {{Tlx|hero-or-heroine}}
 
* {{Tlx|Heroes-or-Heroines}} and {{Tlx|heroes-or-heroines}}
 
  
Every one of these can take the optional parameter {{para|or|<var>anything at all</var>}} (as in, for example, {{Tlx|he-or-she|or{{=}}1}}). If  {{para|or|<var>anything</var>}} is present, you'll instead get either <code>he or she</code> or <code>she or he</code> instead.
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{{fullurl:Special:ExpandTemplates|wpInput=%7b%7bsafesubst:User:FeRDNYC/User+Talk+Message%7d%7d&wpContextTitle=User+talk:Djonni}}
  
These are safe to use inline with combining forms. As in: <code>Now {{Tl|he-or-she}}'s the winner!</code> will produce the expected <code>Now he's the winner!</code> or <code>Now she's the winner!</code>.
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You'll see the formatted message at the bottom of the page. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 01:51, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
  
There's more information (and an important note about an error I can't fix, which could cause you to panic unnecessarily) in the [[Template:He-or-she/Documentation|documentation for <nowiki>{{he-or-she}}</nowiki>]] (and if you can fix that error, brilliant!).
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::It seems some people keeps on redirect their user page to another page for some reasons, tried to leave messages but it don't seem to reach through. Well it's not really a serious issue but still happens. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 16:03, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
  
'''''Great, [[Djonni]], but what's the point?'''''
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::: Honestly, though, that's ''fine'' and if people want to do it then more power to 'em. (There are all sorts of reasons why someone might want to, including '''intending''' their user page to be editable by other people. That's the reason {{user|Djonni}} specifically gives on his [[User talk:Djonni|talk page]].) If people want to keep a "god" page in the article namespace, as long as it's properly categorized no harm done. It's ''only'' when the corresponding talk page isn't redirected '''back''' to User talk: space that there's a down side. But it works just fine to maintain a non-<code>User:Foo</code> userpage at <code>Foo</code>, with a <code>Talk:Foo</code> page that redirects to <code>User talk:foo</code>, and doing that means they won't miss notifications. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 20:49, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
  
Rather than every single wiki page using ''he'' (or even ''he or she'') as a default choice, this can allow you to have the choice made for you as to what gender will be used in an article. These templates will ''consistently'' choose the same pronoun for a given page; you can be sure that it will consistently choose the same {{he-or-she}}, {{him-or-her}}, {{his-or-hers}}, {{hero-or-heroine}}, etc, and won't switch unexpectedly between them. Then, if you copy-paste the same wiki-code into another page (or transclude it), it will be consistent with ''that'' page. Or, if you prefer, just use it to set an article gender once, and follow that gender choice through the rest of the text, whatever you like. It's a 50/50 diceroll for the gender of a page, to use however you want.
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:::: Sorry, the example-message URL above was "down" for a couple of weeks, as I'd repurposed the page in question to do canvassing for the JanuWiki post-mortem and forgot to set it back afterwards. Anyway, it's working again now. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 16:54, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
  
'''''If you want more'''''
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::::: I'm joining this conversation pretty late, and [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] hasn't been around the wiki since April... does anyone know if he went ahead with the plan? I think it's a very good idea, speaking from my own experience with an unredirected talk page! -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 09:03, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
  
I'm done with this collection of templates for now (it was a ''much'' larger set that I first expected already), but if people indicate they would like to use templates like this in a more use cases, these further templates could be made pretty easily:
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I don't think he end up doing it, but I could be wrong.--[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 13:29, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
  
* {{Tlf|God-or-Goddess}} and corresponding lowercases, plurals, and possessives (a full paradigm of 6 templates altogether)
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:Yeah, alright. I found his draft at [[User:FeRDNYC/User Talk Message]]. I think it's a bit wordy personally, and gets a little lost in the weeds about the history of notifications on mediawiki sites, and needs a heavy edit. But I think his idea is really good and we should work up a better draft and go ahead with it.
* The inverted order templates, for when you want to (e.g.) refer to a secondary character, ''he'', that your primary protagonist, ''she'', interacts with. These would be structured as {{Tlf|She-or-He}}, etc. That set expands out to another 10 templates, plus 6 more for {{Tlf|Goddess-or-God}}
 
  
I'll do the work if there's an indication that anyone likes this idea and would want to use them! :)
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:It's a shame he isn't around at the moment (I'll leave him a talkback regardless!) because he went to the trouble of compiling a list of the affected users and we don't have it! I'll have to do that myself. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 15:07, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
  
'''''Dude, they're ''still'' binary genders.'''''
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== Theming or Other Event Brainstorms ==
  
Yeah, I know. ''All'' of Godville is binary gendered, and it's out-of-scope for me to fix that with a couple of cute little templates. Sorry. If you can propose a ''sensible'' way that I can promote inclusion of non-binary gender anywhere then I'm honestly all ears, I don't have any ideas, good ''or'' bad. But this at least offers something to erode the monotony of male-gendered content on the GodWiki. And hey, since I haven't built the {{Tlf|she-or-he}} counterpart templates, I guess by default I'm also not promoting heteronormativity, so... Yeah, there's that.
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{{u|FeRDNYC}} makes a really good point above that two big events a year would be amazing, but that there's also opportunities for smaller events. With the basis that JanuWiki should now be an annual event, perhaps this should be a list of other event or drive ideas (big and small) that we could do, to figure out how we could space things to still get necessary stuff done. -- [[User:SourceRunner|SourceRunner]] ([[User talk:SourceRunner|talk]]) 17:37, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
  
Okay, I'm gonna go do something else now. If you have questions, comments, criticism, or requests, please let me know, here, [[Talk:Djonni|here]], or by direct message on Godville. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 13:46, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
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* '''JanuWiki 2020: Year of the WikiGnome/GodWikiStmas''' -- Big event. Next JanuWiki. Starts when? Ends January 31, 2020. Wrap-up ends February 29, 2020. Theming granularity? Process certainties?
  
: I've used the {{Tlx|he-or-she}} family of templates in today's update to the [[Template:Featured|Featured Article]] on the main page. It should read fairly seamlessly, and give a concrete example of how it might be used. You'll also note that when appearing on the [[Main Page]] and in the original [[Template:Featured]] page the templates render as <code>he</code> in both places. So speaketh the [[Great Random]]!
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* '''Guidelines and Guide Resources Drive'''
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(Please expand)
  
: If there are any issues with these templates in the Featured Article at all, I encourage you to [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=Template:Featured&action=edit&undoafter=88986&undo=88987 undo the edit] where I put them in, and to [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&action=edit&section=9 explain the problem] here for us. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 10:56, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
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* '''Easter Interlink Special''' -- Small event. EIS Eternal would be willing to sponsor a small wiki event during the Easter week or two weeks, with the object of adding links between pages on GodWiki (with reasonable reasons for doing so). One of the wiki strengths is the ability to create an ecosystem of lore, and the best way to explore that is following links between pages. So there could be the a specific event that GodWiki editors and content creators each chose a pair of pages to interlink, and write the lore between them that explains their relationships in the ecosystem and links the two. A report to the "Help Request" page when finished a pairing would make the pair's linker eligible for a reward of some sort after EIS checks that it has been done and does make sense.
  
:: {{m|idea}} It wouldn't be difficult to implement a parameter {{para|daily|<var>anything</var>}} that will switch the gender every day. I kind of like that idea, it's perfect for use cases like the Main Page etc. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 11:18, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
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* '''Trans-Lore-Ation''' -- Small event. A lot of Godville lore is in the forums and tucked away in little sections of personal chronicles. As players, we in common tend to "know" this lore to be true, but not have it on GodWiki. How about a small event where people scavenger-hunt their favorite descriptions of towns, taverns, monsters, and Godville myths from the older parts of forums and the crannies of guild and personal pages, then add excerpts and possible links to the applicable pages in GodWiki.
  
::: {{m|done}} The existing set of templates now support a parameter, {{para|daily|<var>anything</var>}}, which switches the gender for the text each day. If you want to see it in action, the current (at the time of this note) [[Template:Featured|Featured Article]] snippet on the [[Main Page]] is now using it, and so each day when the cache of the Main Page is refreshed, the text of the Featured Article will change gender. (I am here assuming that the cache is refreshed daily. That may not be the case; a couple of days observation will reveal the real behaviour.)
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* '''Stub It Out''' -- Large event. Survey what articles with the "Stub" tag are still stubs, and remove tags where appropriate. Expand articles that are still stubs.
  
::: {{m|thankyou}} Also, after some effort by the talented {{god|FerdNYC}}, the error described in the docs is no longer an issue. I'll update the docs to explain how the template behaves before a new page is saved.
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* '''"Wherefore ART Thou?"''' -- Large event(?). Adding art to the "picture needed" category articles. Some artists need a long time to plan, so this may need to be a slow or multi-phase event.
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: Could be associated with the stub event maybe?
  
::: Finally, both of these changes make the creation of the inverted template set (<code>{{Tlf|she-or-he}}</code> et cetera) a must. So I'll get to work on that too. (Probably before I update the docs, so I only gotta do that once.) I think I'll make them as essentially wrappers for the current set, though, using a new {{para|reverse|<var>anything</var>}} option, so that improvements are less arduous. (Perhaps I should simply implement a master function (<code>{{Tlf|m-or-f}}</code>?) which takes {{para|male|<var>him</var>}} and {{para|female|<var>her</var>}} text inputs? Then behaviour changes would be completely consistent to the entire set. Hmmm.) -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 13:15, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
 
  
:::: {{m|done}} Instead of making an entire set of {{tlf|she-or-he}}, each of the gender-selection templates now supports the {{para|invert|<var>anything</var>}} parameter to switch the focus of the gender when required to write sensible sentences. More detail and examples are given in the documentation for the {{tl|m-or-f}} template which is now the basis of the whole set (and can be used to construct your own God-or-Goddess or any function you like. More info in the docs.)
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::: Sounds like there is some good ideas ready for the oven. I'd say that if you want to throw an event, just go for it. Create a page for it and allow us to help for the preparation.
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:::Maybe we should make like a planner for upcomming events. By the way, talks about upcomming event may be more appropriate on the main talk
  
:::: Oh, and while writing the docs I realised I'd missed the possessive adjectives, so I've added {{tl|his-or-her}} and {{tl|His-or-Her}} to the set. So now, {{he-or-she|daily=1}} can hold {{his-or-her|daily=1|invert=1}} hand in the moonlight, and make sense.
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::: As for JanuWiki2020 (or GodWikiStmas maybe), I'd say we have the time to see it coming. Let's care of other event before.
  
:::: I'm going to start subtly including these templates in some key places around the GodWiki, especially for content in highly-visible places like the Main Page. But they're there for everyone's use, so if you want to, enjoy!
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::: --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 23:55, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
  
:::: Please leave any relevant comments, questions, or requests here. For now, I consider this little template project concluded. :) Cheers -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 17:05, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
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:::: As another idea for a possible event (I don't even know if it would be considered big or small), [[:Category:Pictures needed]] is up to 314 entries. That's 314 ''existing'' articles (primarily ones that use {{tlx|Monster}}, {{tlx|Artifact}}, or {{tlx|Equipment}}) which don't have an image to go with their subject. Trimming that list down a bit could also be a good way to get non-writers involved in creating wiki content. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 06:39, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
  
{{outdent|:::::}} {{tqi|If you can propose a ''sensible'' way that I can promote inclusion of non-binary gender anywhere then I'm honestly all ears|q=yes}} Personally I've become pretty big on singular "they" (and equivalent forms), for the general case of genderless pronoun usage. And it doesn't even require any templates! 😉
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::::: Oh, yes, and [[:Category:Stubs]] is up to 552 articles that (in theory) need fleshing-out.
  
You do have to get used to reading things like, "The hero brushed themself off and continued on their way," which parses pretty weird at first. Also, '''holy ''wow''''' do some people get irrationally pissed off at that usage, accusing you of everything from PC capitulation to eroding the fabric of society. But I say screw those people, since they insist on being <nowiki>{{dicks-and-or-vaginas}}</nowiki>. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 13:07, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
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::::: I say "in theory" because some of them may not ''really'' be stubs, having been expanded since they were tagged that way. In the "Advanced options" at the bottom of the [[Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rendering|appearance preferences]] is the option "Threshold for stub link formatting". It takes a length (in bytes) an article's source must be so it's not considered a stub. Links to all articles shorter than that threshold will be colored with a darker shade of red than the standard {{fake redlink|redlink}} coloring.
  
: (Note that my example also requires the reader to consider "hero" a genderless noun, which is a topic about which there has been plenty of debate, and strong arguments made on both sides.) -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 13:21, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
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::::: I currently have that preference set to 1000 bytes, and still some of the items in [[:Category:Stubs]] are colored blue. It's certainly ''possible'' for an article that's over 1000 bytes long to also be a stub, but it's also possible that there's already plenty of content there and the stub designation is outdated / overzealous. I'd say maybe 10-15% of the category's members show non-stub link coloring. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 07:00, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
  
:: Oh I absolutely agree on "they", but as you also pointed out, it's not, erm... ''universally'' agreed upon. ;) The genderlessness of "hero" is also interesting, but since all of Godville differentiates between {{heroes-or-heroines|daily=1}} and {{heroes-or-heroines|daily=1|invert=1}}, I feel like defaulting to 'hero' in the Goville context is defaulting to male-focussed language.
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:::::: These are great ideas for events, {{u|WardPhoenix}} and {{u|FeRDNYC}}. I've added them to the bullet point list above, and tried to evaluate them as large or small, based on your descriptions. Please feel free to expand or change what's in the bullet list.
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:::::: {{u|WardPhoenix}}, good suggestion about the planner/calendar for events. Is something like that possible in GodWiki, {{u|FeRDNYC}}? --[[User:SourceRunner|SourceRunner]] ([[User talk:SourceRunner|talk]]) 15:21, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
  
:: But! If any editor wishes to, ''they'' are welcome to use any language they like when describing or failing to describe the gender of any characters. Of course. :) -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 14:09, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
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::::::: {{tqb|I'd say that if you want to throw an event, just go for it. Create a page for it and allow us to help for the preparation.|WardPhoenix}}
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::::::: I would agree with that, with one small adjustment: When you decide you ''definitely '''are''''' throwing an event, creating a page for it would be the first step in preparing for it, and can serve as the formal announcement of the upcoming event.  
  
::: [[Image:cross.png]] "Not that there's anything wrong with that!"
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::::::: I think {{u|Djonni}} worked up to [[JanuWiki 2019]] exactly the right way (whether intentionally or by pure luck): He put out feelers on the forums and in a proposal here at [[Talk:Main Page]], and used those discussions to solicit feedback and take the community's temperature on the idea. Then once he was sure there was sufficient interest that he could commit to definitely doing an event, he pulled the trigger on creating the event page, at which point he had someplace he could link to as a "more information" resource when he made the official announcement(s) about the upcoming event.
::: [[Image:tick.png]] "No, of course not!" -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 19:57, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
 
  
== Guild infoboxes now automatically link to guild pages ==
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::::::: At any stage of planning, there's always the possibility that an event could end up getting cancelled for lack of involvement or interest. Things happen. But that risk can be minimized by getting at least a core team on board ''before'' putting a lot of work into constructing an event framework for a "maybe" or "possible" event. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 14:43, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
  
[[User:Djonni|Djonni]] had the excellent idea to have {{tl|Guild}} generate links to guild pages ''automatically'', instead of requiring a {{para|stats}} argument to provide the URL. So, that's now in place, and a lot of Guild articles should contain '''Guild Page:''' links that didn't have them before.
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Moved this to the main page as it is more appropriate place and also easier to reach (yeah I'm lazy to reach for januwiki page every time on my phone). By the way I think the EIS event would be quite interesting, and as easter is coming i'd suggest we start thinking about it if you really want to kick it.
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On a side note, I don't think a guideline event would be appropriate. Guidelines are supposed to be wrote by experimented and active users for beginners. That's more something we have to work on with experimented users I'd say.
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-- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 23:02, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
  
If for some reason you would prefer '''not''' to have that link shown on a guild article, passing a {{para|stats|no}} argument to the {{tl|Guild}} template will disable the automatic link generation.
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: That's a fair point, re: the Guidelines. I guess it depends how broadly you define "event". Certainly, you're right, guidelines-updates aren't the sort of free-for-all activity where we'd put out a call to the entire Godville user community for participation. Maybe "an effort", or "a sprint" (to employ some of my least-favorite software development jargon), ''among'' those experienced users.
  
And if the automatic link is generated ''wrong'' for some reason, {{para|stats|<var>url</var>}} still works to manually supply a URL. (This also means that older guild articles that include a {{para|stats|<var>url</var>}} argument will continue to function same as always. But {{para|stats|<var>url</var>}} is no longer '''necessary''' to have a '''Guild Page:''' link show up.)
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: That being said...
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:# A ''lot'' of what's lacking in the current Guidelines articles just comes down to formatting, copyediting, structure, and layout fixes — things that ''could'' be done by almost anyone, especially with guidance, as there's no real expertise needed. (However, as they '''also''' need major content updates, they're definitely not ''entirely'' fixable by casual editors alone. But they could be vastly improved.)
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:# Because (as you say) the target audience for the Guidelines is inexperienced users, in my experience it's a huge mistake to write them '''without''' any input from users at or near that level. One of the things I learned in software development is that you never have the senior programmer, the one who wrote most of the code and knows every aspect of the software inside-and-out, write the instruction manual. If they try, 90% of the time it'll end up being unintelligible to the "average users" it's supposed to be written for. <p>(It's the same reason you NEVER sign up for a freshman-level "Intro to Whatever" class if it's taught by that department's most senior, most published, most brilliant researcher. Very few people whose knowledge of a topic is at that level will be capable of "dumbing things down" sufficiently that they can effectively teach it to students who have virtually no background in the subject. Everything will go right over their heads.)</p>
  
For most Guild articles, {{para|stats}} should '''not''' be included in the template arguments anymore. It's easier to just let the template generate the link automatically. (It's up to the editors of existing guild articles, whether you remove {{para|stats}} if it's already set.)
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: The two trickiest problems in documentation don't have anything to do with knowledge or accuracy of information: The first is figuring out exactly where your target audience is at in terms of background knowledge and skill level, so that you know which things need to be explained, vs. what they probably already know so you don't waste their time repeating it. The other problem, then, is being ''able'' to explain things at that level, without leaving out any of the information they need because it's just implicitly assumed or seems "obvious" to someone with more experience.  
  
The other link parameter, {{para|forum|<var>url</var>}}, is still required if you want to display a forum link. There's no way the template can automatically determine the correct URL for guild forums. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 12:53, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
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: ...But, all that being said I agree that Guidelines updates wouldn't make sense as an "event" in the JanuWiki mold, where we try to solicit come-one-come-all participation from as many users as possible. Heck, they may not be a very good fit for any sort of organized "group effort" at all — our best bet may be for someone to eventually just dive in and start making [[wikipedia:WP:BOLD|Bold]] changes to define an updated, improved structure for the content. Even if they only update a single Guideline article, once there's an example to work off of, other editors can pitch in to apply the same changes to the rest of the Guidelines. (That sort of example-based, follow-the-leader model is how ''most'' content-wide changes propagate here, really. Djonni created the {{tlx|hero or heroine}} template set, but he's responsible for only a handful of edits that applied those templates to article content.) -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 14:43, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
  
== Decorations were hung on the artifacts with care ==
 
  
'''''Note:''' this template has since been renamed more generally as {{tlx|Decorate item}}''
 
  
Inspired by the [[Halloween 2018]] article's extensive use of example pumpkin-decorated artifact names, and by the fact that just ''writing'' e.g. "🎃[[golden pumpkin]]🎃" doesn't quite look right (the pumpkins are too close to the text), I've created a new set of templates specifically to produce these "decorated" strings, but with nicer formatting and line-wrapping protection.
 
  
The general-purpose template is {{tlx|decorate artifact}}, but more convenient wrappers have been created for known Godville decorations:
 
  
* {{tlx|pumpkins}}: for decorating Halloween artifacts, e.g.
 
:: {{tlx|pumpkins|<nowiki>[[golden pumpkin]]</nowiki>|}} → {{pumpkins|[[golden pumpkin]]}}
 
* {{tlx|party}}: for decorating celebration-related artifacts (like the anniversary specials), e.g.
 
:: {{tlx|party|<nowiki>[[3000-days gold coin]]</nowiki>|}} → {{party|[[3000-days gold coin]]}}
 
  
Templates for additional standard decorations will be added as they appear, or [[Template talk:Decorate artifact|upon request]]. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 15:39, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
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== Subpages for main namespace ==
  
:* {{tlx|turkey}} was aded for Thanksgiving, and produces the first one-sided decoration:
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According to [[Mediawikiwiki:Help:Subpages|MW:Help:Subpages]], subpages are disabled for the main namespace. Should I submit a Feedback => Other asking for them to add the Main namespace to $wgNamespacesWithSubpages?
::: {{tlx|turkey|<nowiki>[[roasted turkey]]</nowiki>}} → {{turkey|[[roasted turkey]]}} -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 04:13, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 
  
== A new link template for Guild pages ==
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If we are going to suggest that guilds use subpages instead of not subpages, shouldn’t they be enabled...? I only noticed this now as I was dealing with HM’s main namespace pages and didn’t see the breadcrumb links. — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 21:43, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
  
A new linking template, {{tlx|Guild link}}, has been added to the wiki. Use it to conveniently link to the official Godville page for the named [[Guilds|Guild]].
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: That seems like a good thing to submit, though it may not be accepted. Since there are already subpages being used in practice in Main, the primary advantages would be:
  
The same way: {{tlx|God|<var>God name</var>|}} => {{God|<var>God name</var>}}
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:* Better breadcrumb navigation (or, breadcrumb navigation in Main at all)
 +
:* Correct subpage moves if required
  
You can now use: {{tlx|Guild link|<var>Guild name</var>|}} => {{Guild link|<var>Guild name</var>}}
+
:The only subpages I know of in Main are Guild (off the top of my head, ref. the [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?search=Harvest%20Moon&title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=1 HM subpages,] [[Russia/statistics]], [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?search=The%20Forsakens%20Lament&title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=1 TFL subpages]) and some user pages in the main namespace (including my own [[Djonni/Shared sandbox]]... We'll see if the Devs feel it's worth enabling for those cases. With the changes to user templates that are being discussed and worked on, subpages with infobox templates may become more common for guilds. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 13:27, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
  
(Hopefully the emoji shield in front of the Guild's name shows up everywhere. If not, in particular if you see an empty rectangle or any sort of question-mark symbol, please reply and let me know — include the details of what browser, device, operating system, etc. you're using.)
+
:: Submitted~! — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 15:52, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
  
For example: {{tlx|Guild link|Bobius|}} => {{Guild link|Bobius}}
+
== A Godwiki survey? ==
  
There's also a plaintext mode, just add {{para|plain|yes}}. {{tlx|Guild link|Eternal|plain{{=}}yes}} => {{Guild link|Eternal|plain=yes}}.
+
One of the thing I had planned at one point of [[SummerWiki 2019]] was a poll to vote for best article. The idea was to make maybe people that didn't participate aware of the articles and make them read those and further if possibly. After all, people lile to vote [[anonymouse]], so I though a poll would have been an idea to present the godwiki.  
  
(That's used in the {{tlx|Guild}} infobox template, to generate the '''Guild Page:''' links.)
+
Soooo, I was wondering if doing an anonymous survey for the Godwiki could lure people there and maybe tell us why people aren't using it that much (or atleast not contributing much). There is thousands of actives gods and wey less active right here.
 +
And maybe with those answers we could improve the godwiki to lure more people in.
  
Full details, including available parameters and more examples, are in the documentation at {{tlx|Guild link}}. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 15:53, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
+
I have never done such a survey so well, if you thought it's a good idea, let's work on it together once more! -- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 22:58, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
  
== And a new link template for Pantheon positions... ==
+
'''Random samples of questions'''
  
... just to complete the set!
+
* How often do you use the Godwiki.
 +
* If you don't use the Godwiki tell us why
 +
** Too hard to use
 +
** Don't see why I should use it
 +
** etc.
  
{{Tl|Pantheon link}} can now be used to create a nicely formatted (or plain) link to a Pantheon on the Godville game page, and can optionally link directly to a specific position in that pantheon. It is expected to be used primarily on [[:Category:Gods|God]] or [[:Category:Guilds|Guild]] pages, though be aware that if your pantheon position is volatile you may prefer not to link directly to it.
+
* If you use Godwiki, do you contribute often to it?
 +
* If you don't contribute to it tell us why.
 +
** Too complicated
 +
** Not confident in english
 +
** Don't care
 +
** etc.
  
So now, just as {{tlx|God|<var>God name</var>}} => {{God|<var>God name</var>}}<br />
+
*Are you aware of events that happened and could happens on the Godwiki?
and {{tlx|Guild link|<var>Guild name</var>}} => {{Guild link|<var>Guild name</var>}},
 
  
now {{tlx|Pantheon link|<var>pantheon</var>}} => {{Pantheon link|pantheon}}
+
* What do you like on the Godwiki
 +
* What don't you like on the Godwiki
  
And, more usefully, to link to a specific pantheon position:<br />
+
* What you would like to see on Godwiki?
{{tlx|Pantheon link|<var>pantheon</var>|15}} => {{Pantheon link|pantheon|15}}.
 
  
As with the shield in {{Tl|Guild link}}, hopefully the trophy emoji appears correctly on any device. Should it not, reply here and let us know, with what browser, device, operating system, etc. you're using.
+
* What do you think could be improved on the Godwiki?
  
Some quick examples:
+
* Were you aware there are volunteers ready to help you with Godwiki articles?
  
:{{Tlx|Pantheon link|taming|237}} => {{Pantheon link|taming|237}}
+
* Were you aware that you could create your personnal page on the Godwiki ?
:{{Tlx|Pantheon link|savings|20|text{{=}}short}} => {{Pantheon link|savings|20|text=short}}
 
:{{Tlx|Pantheon link|wood|1102|plain{{=}}yes}} => {{Pantheon link|wood|1102|plain=yes}}
 
:{{Tlx|Pantheon link|storytelling|51|text{{=}}none|plain{{=}}yes}} => {{Pantheon link|storytelling|51|text=none|plain=yes}}
 
:<code><nowiki>[[Pantheon of Gratitude]]: '''</nowiki>{{tlp|Pantheon link|gratitude|123|text{{=}}none|plain{{=}}yes}}<nowiki>'''</nowiki></code> => [[Pantheon of Gratitude]]: '''{{Pantheon link|gratitude|123|text=none|plain=yes}}'''
 
  
More details and examples are in the documentation at the {{tl|Pantheon link}} page. Take a quick look there to see how to use it with any pantheon you'd like (though it best suits pantheons where your position is quite stable, as it can't update itself magically with your current position). If you have any questions not covered in the documentation, please feel free to ask, either here or on [[Template talk:Pantheon link]]. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 13:16, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
+
:: Are you suggesting like a Google Forms or SurveyMonkey survey be posted as an alert on the main page? Since most of my motivation for editing is to make editing as painless as possible for other people, I’m actually completely on-board with with idea.
  
== Sign template updates requiring page edits ==
+
:: If we do do a survey, I would suggest making the aggregate results public (eg: announcing it on the main page).
  
{{Sign|title=This template needs to be fixed|text=These fixes will require the editing of Guild articles by a non-Guild-member (specifically, me — [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]]), which is normally not permitted by the Godwiki rules. I request that everyone understand the reasons behind this one-time, limited violation of those rules.}}
+
:: We could also not do this as a one-time thing, but a recurring thing at set intervals.
===The plan===
 
The {{tlx|Sign}} template, which is used to create notices like the one above, has several issues with how its parameters are specified. You can find a long, detailed explanation of those issues at [[Template talk:Sign|the Talk page for the template]], if you're interested. But the important point here is, those issues are going to be fixed. The fixes, however, will affect ''existing'' uses of {{tlx|Sign}} in Godwiki articles.
 
===What this means for you (the editor of an article containing {{tlx|Sign}})===
 
# If your article contains a sign transclusion with parameters like {{tlx|Sign|bordercolor{{=}}red}} or {{tlx|Sign|bgcolor{{=}}#91A3B0}}, those parameters will '''start''' working, where up until now they have been ignored. This will change the appearance of the sign, perhaps in unwanted ways. If so, simply remove the {{para|bgcolor}}, {{para|bordercolor}}, or {{para|outerbordercolor}} arguments so that the sign will use the default values, like it was previously.
 
# If your article contains a transclusion with parameters like {{para|bordercolor|ee8822}}, those parameters will ''break'' due to the changes. If this happens, '''I will fix them for you''', by changing them to e.g. {{para|bordercolor|#ee8822}}. You will not have to do anything. That is the reason for this announcement, and for the request that Guild members understand why a non-member will be editing their Guild page. My changes on any Guild articles will be limited to editing {{tlx|Sign}} parameters '''''only'''''.
 
  
If there are any affected {{tlx|Sign}} transclusions on user pages (it doesn't ''look'' like it, so far), I won't be able to fix them. I'll try to leave explanatory notes on the associated Talk pages, if those cases arise.
+
:: I would suggest that instead of the conditional question for not contributing, we ask the question and then provide a set of “How much do you agree with the following statements” questions after it. Eg: “The editing guidelines are easy to understand.” (And others... I just can’t think of any)
  
I don't plan to start these changes immediately (I want to give people time to digest this announcement, for one thing), but they will be happening soon and most likely will be completed by the end of the week. If anyone has any objections or issues, you have the floor... -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 21:56, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
+
:: I’d ask a conditional question “Have you recently posted a request for help on Help:Requests?” And if so, do another “how much agree” set. Like: “I feel that my request was satisfactorily resolved.” (Etc) optionally asking the name of the volunteer/for more info they want to provide.
  
: <strike>{{m|partlydone}}</strike>
+
:: Lastly I’d suggest on the last page we add an optional field asking for god name (should they want to provide it), and an option to perhaps request that we contact them...? Similarly, an “any additional comments” field.
: The color-parameter changes are complete. {{tlx|Sign|bgcolor{{=}}|bordercolor{{=}}|outerbordercolor{{=}}}} now accepts '''any''' valid CSS color string, e.g. {{para|bgcolor|red}} or {{para|bordercolor|rgb(100,150,0)}}. If specifying color by hex color value (i.e. <code>#RGB</code> or <code>#RRGGBB</code>), you ''must'' include  the leading <code>#</code> sign.
 
:; Guild pages edited
 
:* [[The Ancestry Knight]]
 
:* [[Lucky God Casino]] (three places)
 
:* [[I AM]] (two places)
 
:* [[Open Bar]]
 
:* [[404]]
 
: The only change that remains to be done is the fix to {{para|imgwidth}}, and the only page that will be affected ''there'' is [[Open Bar]] (again). I'll get to that another time. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 00:24, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
 
:: {{m|done}}
 
:: Completely done, {{para|imgwidth}} syntax is updated in {{tlx|Sign}} and all three pages which make use of that parameter ([[Open Bar]], [[Template:Godwiki event construction]], and [[Template:Godwiki event review]]) have been modified accordingly. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 11:52, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
 
  
== Default picture and auto-templating for Artifact and Monster infoboxes ==
+
:: I know I say all of this, but, the simpler the form, the better. Likewise, the less text and shorter the form, the better. I don’t expect us to do all of what I just wrote, I’m just throwing it out there. — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 00:33, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
  
Just like {{tlx|Equipment}} since its inception, {{tlx|Artifact}} and {{tlx|Monster}} now have default "generic" images that they will use whenever an image is not supplied via {{para|image|<var>filename</var>}}. They will also (again just like {{tlx|Equipment}}) auto-template those articles as {{tlx|Picture}}-needed, adding them to the [[:Category:Pictures needed|Pictures needed]] hidden category.
+
::: I'm definitely on-board for this, with a few hesitations.
  
To avoid double-templating, I removed the manual {{tlx|Picture}} templating from any {{tlx|Artifact}}-using articles which already had it. (There were only two, [[Orange bag]] and [[Heart warmer]].)
+
::: Getting surveys right is ''hard''. Phrasing questions well requires a ''lot'' of thought, so let's not rush. I think we need to keep a few things in mind:
 +
:::* Any question that requires typing will cause some people to just stop doing the survey in immediately.
 +
:::* We don't have permission to collect personal information, and shouldn't ask for it. No god name fields at all, no personal information at all, neither the respondent's nor others' (e.g., editors who helped them)
 +
:::* Information from the community belongs to the community. ''All'' answers should be anonymous, anonymized if necessary, and then the data made available to everyone, once we check through to ensure there is no personal or inappropriate information included (all text that is kept would have to comply with the game rules, not mention any individuals or guilds, etc. Any response that wasn't suitable to be made public would need to be discarded)
  
I tried to also get all of the {{tlx|Monster}} articles which contained manual {{tlx|Picture}} templates. There were far more of those, and I can't promise I didn't miss any. If you see any articles with '''two''' "Pictures needed" hatnotes (that's a message box at the top of the page), please edit the article source to remove the "{{tlx|Picture}}" template, as the infobox is now automatically supplying it. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 02:45, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
+
::: There's probably others but I'm still working on my first coffee.
  
== Navbar line on navboxes ==
+
::: A cautious thumbs up from this guy. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 06:39, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
  
Now that we have a {{tlx|Navbar}} template (which I imported for use with the new {{tlx|Infobox}} code, though that isn't ready yet), we can have our Navbox templates show links to make them easier to modify. I've installed a Navbar on just {{tlx|Navboxauras}} for now, as an experiment. It's the three letters (for View • Talk • Edit) in the upper left corner that let you access the navbox template more easily:
+
{{outdent|::::}} I’m going to start going to you, {{u|Djonni}}, when I have questions about privacy practices... heh.
  
{{Navboxauras}}
+
But yes, everything you said is very valid. Maybe at most, on the final screen (very end) an additional comments field that’s entirely optional.
  
Navbars on ''infoboxes'' tend to have fallen out of favor on MediaWiki sites (and I may still end up disabling them on our new infoboxes, before they're released), because they lead to people who want to update infobox data trying to edit the template ''code'', when they '''should''' be editing the template ''transclusion'' in the article they're reading.  
+
Surveys certainly are hard, my first reaction to a survey from a company I’m not entirely on board with (virtually everything aside from Mozilla/MDN surveys) is, “Ugh. No thank you,” if I am in a good mood, and, “Yeah, no. I don’t need more people tracking me and my opinions,” otherwise. The longer the survey, the more likely I am to abandon it too.
  
But with Navboxes, there's nothing to edit in the article, and you ''do'' need to edit the template code to modify them. So, it's a little different. There is still the danger, though, that the links will lead to inexperienced people messing up the Navbox templates more frequently. So I guess that's one reason for experimenting on just one template, first, to see if {{tlx|Navboxauras}} becomes the target of increased problem editing.
+
I mean, I’m not attached to the idea of collecting god/volunteer names anyway. That’s probably just useless information at best and asking for trouble at worst. I’m not even attached to having text fields. The “how much do you agree” kind of things are more than enough for the vast majority of the things we might be looking for. Using them results in less text the user has to read too, which should, if even just a little, raise the odds of someone completing the survey. The most successful surveys are short and sweet. Eg: “would you recommend us to a friend?” (Y/N), “why?” (Text), end of form. — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 07:38, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
  
Let me know if anyone has any thoughts or objections. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 05:25, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
+
: [https://fr.surveymonkey.com/r/8HZCN7W A draft of what could be done as a survey]. Updated the link for the draft, try to answer it so I can see how the results appears and give feedback about it if you don't mind! --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 14:45, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
  
:How about we have a version for Infoboxes that simply omits the 'edit' option? I think there's definitely merit in a clear link directly to the documentation and talk pages for an infobox. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 16:16, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
+
:: Some informations from what I can see at the moments: there is possibility to keep the survey anonymous easily (just a parameter to check) and there is detailled results for each questions even, written ones. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 14:20, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
  
:: Hmm, that's definitely an option technically, so yeah that could be one way to go. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 05:27, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
+
== Pages marked for deletion tend to redirect here ==
  
== <strike>Preview</strike> Rollout of new Infoboxes ==
+
I don't think this is a good practice. See [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=Special%3AWhatLinksHere&hidetrans=1&hidelinks=1&target=Main+Page&namespace= this page] for a list of redirects to the main page. --[[User:Uni34|Uni34]] ([[User talk:Uni34|talk]]) 08:14, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
  
For a while now, I've been working on adapting the master {{tlx|Infobox}} code from the English Wikipedia for use here at the GodWiki, with the aim being to reimplement our Infoboxes. Using {{tlx|Infobox}} as the base template gives us access to more advanced features and formatting, and gives the infoboxes a more modern and cohesive look.
+
: Yup, I completely agree. The main page redirects came first in most cases, and were then marked for deletion. I argued for the redirects to simply be replaced with {{tlc|Delete}}, as I felt then and still do that those redirects are very disorientating for people especially for people who don't understand how wikis work. But this conversation happened a while ago, (I can't find it now) and folks didn't seem to agree with me, so I started adding {{tl|Delete}} to those redirects as I came across them, leaving the redirects in place.
  
For this first round I'm focusing only on the three main infoboxes — certainly {{tlx|Town}} would also be updated, and most likely {{tlx|Guild}}, the user infoboxes, etc. as well, but that would all come later.
+
: But, since someone else has brought it up again... I completely agree, redirecting hundreds of random unneeded pages to the Main Page instead of marking then for deletion with a clear reason was, I think, always a bad idea! I'd love to get rid of aaallllll those redirects if those here now agree that it's a good idea. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 08:33, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
  
There's some initial discussion between [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] and myself at [[Talk:Djonni#Preview Release!]] for anyone interested, but the real point is that I feel like the effort has progressed far enough to seek commentary and input from a wider audience.
+
:: 👍-- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 01:53, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
  
Anyone interested is welcome to take a look at [[User:FeRDNYC/Sandbox]], which contains a series of Artifact, Equipment, and Monster articles showcasing different possible forms of the new infobox templates for those articles. Where there are differences between them, or different versions of the same thing, it means that I'm trying out different possible formattings. As it says in the intro to that page, any and all input is welcome and encouraged — there's a link to the associated Talk page if anyone has any thoughts, positive or negative, on any or all of the infoboxes shown there.
+
== Note about creating a special kind of article ==
  
'''Most''' helpful to me, at this stage, would be firm preferences of the form, "I like (this formatting) much better than (that formatting), you should definitely go with the first one." But, as I said, ''any'' input is welcome. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 03:50, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
+
See [https://godvillegame.com/forums/redirect_to_post/2?post=1289223 this post]. The idea is interesting , but we should considerate if we need to create one article regrouping all of those advices or having those advices in every concerned articles (dungeon/sail/etc)
 
+
: Both, it will be a pain to keep updated, but that way new people coming in will know their needs are being considered and met. In every page, so that everyone is integrated within the community. --[[User:Sand Devil|Sand Devil]] ([[User talk:Sand Devil|talk]]) 21:00, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
: {{m|started}}
 
 
 
: The new {{tlx|Town}} is now live. I spot-checked a bunch of articles and saw no obvious problems, but if you '''do''', please feel free to use the "T" link in the bottom-right corner of the infobox to access [[Template talk:Town]]. You can report problems or anything else there.
 
 
 
: If all goes well, I'll hopefully take at least {{tlx|Artifact}} and {{tlx|Equipment}} live later today, with {{tlx|Monster}} to follow shortly after. Thanks especially to {{god|Djonni}} and {{god|SourceRunner}}, who provided invaluable feedback and advice during testing. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 17:59, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
 
 
 
:: {{m|doing}}
 
 
 
:: {{tlx|Artifact}} and {{tlx|Equipment}} are also now updated. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 02:43, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: {{m|done}}
 
 
 
::: With the deployment of {{tlx|Monster}}, the four main article infoboxes are now updated and live. Please use the 'T' link at the bottom of any of them, to report problems on the associated Talk page. Other wiki infoboxes (guild/user-related) will be updated time permitting. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]])
 
 
 
:::: The new infoboxes look SO GOOD in the wild! You put a ''lot'' of work and thought into them and it really shows. Thank you '''''so''''' much for your effort on these.
 
 
 
:::: Amazing what a nice fresh coat of paint will do around the place! -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 06:26, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
 
 
 
== A humble proposal ==
 
 
 
This proposal and discussion has been archived to [[Talk:JanuWiki 2019/Archive]].
 
 
 
== Fixes for mobile content layout ==
 
 
 
So, I have an ''idea'' for how to blanket address the general mobile-browser formatting issue of content/headings being hidden by, cut off by, or improperly squeezed in alongside infoboxes and other right-floated elements (like the Archive box on Talk pages), without having to modify individual pages. The ''correct'' way to solve this problem would be with modifications to the site CSS, but lacking the ability to make such modifications I'm proposing the following band-aid fix.
 
 
 
For those not familiar with the issue, see:
 
* The second, fourth, and sixth images in [https://imgur.com/a/bWh75T4 this set of screenshots] from {{god|S624}}
 
* [https://imgur.com/a/zDv7djX These screenshots] also from {{god|S624}}
 
* [https://imgur.com/a/8dTiBXT This screenshot] or [https://imgur.com/a/6JNnEBS this screenshot] from {{god|Terezka}}
 
 
 
I've also written up [[User:FeRDNYC/Administrative requests#Content obscured by infoboxes on mobile|an incomplete technical dissection of the issue]] for those interested. The later update also explains both my initial idea for addressing the issue, and this (rethought) second plan that I'm now proposing. The first plan involved editing each page where content was wrapping incorrectly, whereas the new plan involves only editing the handful of templates which create infoboxes or other floated content.
 
 
 
My proposal is to add an invisible spacer to the end of each template which creates floated content ({{tlx|Monster}}, {{tlx|Equipment}}, {{tlx|Artifact}}, {{tlx|Town}}, {{tlx|Guild}}, {{tlx|Archives}}, etc.), immediately following the floated block. Because this spacer will have a fixed minimum width, if it fits alongside the floated block then it will simply cause an empty paragraph's worth of vertical whitespace at the top-left of the float. However, if there ''isn't'' room for the spacer alongside the float, then it will push any content which follows it (whether headings, body text, etc.) down '''below''' the floated block, preventing any of the uncomfortable layouts seen in the screenshots above.
 
 
 
To visually demonstrate what I'm suggesting, I've created '''[https://imgur.com/a/A47nhQg a screenshot gallery across a range of screen formats and orientations, and various wiki skins]'''. The screenshots present examples of how a test page would render first without, and then with, the invisible spacer. (The location of the normally-invisible spacer is highlighted with a "<code>div</code>" callout in all screenshots starting from the fifth.)
 
 
 
Making this change should fix all affected pages, and hopefully on all affected devices, without any of the individual pages needing to be modified in any way.
 
 
 
Thoughts? -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 14:41, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
 
:: Seems quite the revolution. It's gonna be a lot to add it to every concerned page, but in the end it will be way better it seems. Great thanks to you! [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 15:02, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::: Modifying the templates definitely sounds easier/less involved than editing each page. I like the look of the solution, too. Is there a reason behind choosing the fixed width to specifically be 180 px? (That's what I think I'm reading, at least.) It works well, but I'm curious. -- [[User:SourceRunner|SourceRunner]] ([[User talk:SourceRunner|talk]]) 15:11, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::: @WardPhoenix: The advantage to the proposed fix is that it specifically ''doesn't'' require modifying every page — only a few templates. The alternative would be to correct every page which is rendering incorrectly, which would indeed be a huge chore. As proposed, as few as two templates need to be edited. (If I decide the right way to go is to stick the fix into {{tlx|Infobox}} itself — rather than the derived templates like {{tlx|Monster}} and {{tlx|Town}} etc. — then that covers 95% of the problem instances in one shot.)
 
 
 
:::: @SourceRunner: The width is specified as <code>15em</code>, so the exact size will vary based on device resolution, but the actual value is basically arbitrary. Its effect is to impose a required (minimum) width for the area to the left of a floated template, before it's allowed to have content placed alongside. The width used is certainly open to adjustment — my goal is to find a value that's wide enough to prevent situations like [https://i.imgur.com/NIdHi8t.png this] or [https://i.imgur.com/7g9Alrb.png this], without leaving excessively-large blank areas next to infoboxes and the like. (Keeping in mind that any ''headings'' that are allowed to render in that space will be cut off unless the space is wide enough to wrap all of the words into it.)
 
 
 
:::: Basically, I'm trying to avoid creating either of these situations:
 
<div style="border:1px solid gray;padding:0.2em;width:20em;float:left;margin-right:1em;margin-left:8em;">
 
<div style="float:right;background-color:#88f;width:15em;height:8em;"> </div>
 
<div style="display:inline-block;min-width:4em;height:1px;"> </div>
 
<div style="font-size: 1.5em; font-family: Georgia,Times,serif; margin-top: 1em; margin-bottom: 0.25em; line-height: 1.3; padding: 0; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAAAAA; overflow: hidden;">Too narrow, heading truncated</div>
 
</div>
 
<div style="border:1px solid gray;padding:0.2em;width:20em;float:left;margin-right:1em;">
 
<div style="float:right;background-color:#88f;width:5em;height:8em;"> </div>
 
<div style="display:inline-block;min-width:16em;height:1px;"> </div>
 
Too wide, content pushed out when it could comfortably fit alongside.
 
</div>
 
{{clear}}
 
:::: ...Keeping in mind that the width of the left-hand space in those boxes will vary by quite a lot, based on factors like screen size, orientation, etc. Choosing the right <code>min-width</code> value to achieve the proper balance is completely a matter of intuition / trial-and-error. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 19:04, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
 
 
 
::::: (By using a width in <code>em</code> units, the size of the spacer is defined based on the font size in use. Specifically, it's the width of 15 letter 'm' characters. So, currently, the minimum available space to render text to the left of floated content would be this large: <span style="white-space:no-wrap;background-color:black;color:#3f3;">mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm</span>.) -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 19:12, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
 
: This seems to have introduced a new problem, at least on my iPhone 5S using the vector skin. The info box now appears not at the top, but after the first paragraph, so sometime half way down the page, and also, the box is cut off on the right side of the screen. Here’s a screenshot of the problem : https://imgur.com/a/2TTpUYv
 

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Encouraging use of user talk pages

So, I've written this message, which I'm thinking of going around and (manually) placing on the User talk pages of everyone whose User: page is redirected to the main-article space, to point out that they won't receive talk-page message notifications unless they use their corresponding user talk page.

(This covers two types of users:)

  1. Those with user talk pages like User talk:BlueStapler, User talk:Hershey Almighty, etc. that are redirected to Talk:BlueStapler, Talk:Hershey Almighty, etc.
  2. Users like User:Hairplug4men, User:EJ Rose, etc. with redirected User pages, who have no redirect for their user talk page.

Basically it's about 50 people, I have a whole list. Most of them are probably not active users, but I'd plan to contact them all regardless. If they never see it, oh well. If they do, then great.

I just wanted to solicit feedback before I start.

With Special:ExpandTemplates, you can see what the message would look like when it's placed on Djonni's talk page (as an example). Click the following url:

https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=Special:ExpandTemplates&wpInput=%7b%7bsafesubst:User:FeRDNYC/User+Talk+Message%7d%7d&wpContextTitle=User+talk:Djonni

You'll see the formatted message at the bottom of the page. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 01:51, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

It seems some people keeps on redirect their user page to another page for some reasons, tried to leave messages but it don't seem to reach through. Well it's not really a serious issue but still happens. --WardPhoenix (talk) 16:03, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Honestly, though, that's fine and if people want to do it then more power to 'em. (There are all sorts of reasons why someone might want to, including intending their user page to be editable by other people. That's the reason Djonni (talkcontribs) specifically gives on his talk page.) If people want to keep a "god" page in the article namespace, as long as it's properly categorized no harm done. It's only when the corresponding talk page isn't redirected back to User talk: space that there's a down side. But it works just fine to maintain a non-User:Foo userpage at Foo, with a Talk:Foo page that redirects to User talk:foo, and doing that means they won't miss notifications. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 20:49, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, the example-message URL above was "down" for a couple of weeks, as I'd repurposed the page in question to do canvassing for the JanuWiki post-mortem and forgot to set it back afterwards. Anyway, it's working again now. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 16:54, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
I'm joining this conversation pretty late, and FeRDNYC hasn't been around the wiki since April... does anyone know if he went ahead with the plan? I think it's a very good idea, speaking from my own experience with an unredirected talk page! -- Djonni (talk) 09:03, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

I don't think he end up doing it, but I could be wrong.--WardPhoenix (talk) 13:29, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, alright. I found his draft at User:FeRDNYC/User Talk Message. I think it's a bit wordy personally, and gets a little lost in the weeds about the history of notifications on mediawiki sites, and needs a heavy edit. But I think his idea is really good and we should work up a better draft and go ahead with it.
It's a shame he isn't around at the moment (I'll leave him a talkback regardless!) because he went to the trouble of compiling a list of the affected users and we don't have it! I'll have to do that myself. -- Djonni (talk) 15:07, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Theming or Other Event Brainstorms

FeRDNYC makes a really good point above that two big events a year would be amazing, but that there's also opportunities for smaller events. With the basis that JanuWiki should now be an annual event, perhaps this should be a list of other event or drive ideas (big and small) that we could do, to figure out how we could space things to still get necessary stuff done. -- SourceRunner (talk) 17:37, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

  • JanuWiki 2020: Year of the WikiGnome/GodWikiStmas -- Big event. Next JanuWiki. Starts when? Ends January 31, 2020. Wrap-up ends February 29, 2020. Theming granularity? Process certainties?
  • Guidelines and Guide Resources Drive

(Please expand)

  • Easter Interlink Special -- Small event. EIS Eternal would be willing to sponsor a small wiki event during the Easter week or two weeks, with the object of adding links between pages on GodWiki (with reasonable reasons for doing so). One of the wiki strengths is the ability to create an ecosystem of lore, and the best way to explore that is following links between pages. So there could be the a specific event that GodWiki editors and content creators each chose a pair of pages to interlink, and write the lore between them that explains their relationships in the ecosystem and links the two. A report to the "Help Request" page when finished a pairing would make the pair's linker eligible for a reward of some sort after EIS checks that it has been done and does make sense.
  • Trans-Lore-Ation -- Small event. A lot of Godville lore is in the forums and tucked away in little sections of personal chronicles. As players, we in common tend to "know" this lore to be true, but not have it on GodWiki. How about a small event where people scavenger-hunt their favorite descriptions of towns, taverns, monsters, and Godville myths from the older parts of forums and the crannies of guild and personal pages, then add excerpts and possible links to the applicable pages in GodWiki.
  • Stub It Out -- Large event. Survey what articles with the "Stub" tag are still stubs, and remove tags where appropriate. Expand articles that are still stubs.
  • "Wherefore ART Thou?" -- Large event(?). Adding art to the "picture needed" category articles. Some artists need a long time to plan, so this may need to be a slow or multi-phase event.
Could be associated with the stub event maybe?


Sounds like there is some good ideas ready for the oven. I'd say that if you want to throw an event, just go for it. Create a page for it and allow us to help for the preparation.
Maybe we should make like a planner for upcomming events. By the way, talks about upcomming event may be more appropriate on the main talk
As for JanuWiki2020 (or GodWikiStmas maybe), I'd say we have the time to see it coming. Let's care of other event before.
--WardPhoenix (talk) 23:55, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
As another idea for a possible event (I don't even know if it would be considered big or small), Category:Pictures needed is up to 314 entries. That's 314 existing articles (primarily ones that use {{Monster}}, {{Artifact}}, or {{Equipment}}) which don't have an image to go with their subject. Trimming that list down a bit could also be a good way to get non-writers involved in creating wiki content. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 06:39, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
Oh, yes, and Category:Stubs is up to 552 articles that (in theory) need fleshing-out.
I say "in theory" because some of them may not really be stubs, having been expanded since they were tagged that way. In the "Advanced options" at the bottom of the appearance preferences is the option "Threshold for stub link formatting". It takes a length (in bytes) an article's source must be so it's not considered a stub. Links to all articles shorter than that threshold will be colored with a darker shade of red than the standard redlink coloring.
I currently have that preference set to 1000 bytes, and still some of the items in Category:Stubs are colored blue. It's certainly possible for an article that's over 1000 bytes long to also be a stub, but it's also possible that there's already plenty of content there and the stub designation is outdated / overzealous. I'd say maybe 10-15% of the category's members show non-stub link coloring. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 07:00, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
These are great ideas for events, WardPhoenix and FeRDNYC. I've added them to the bullet point list above, and tried to evaluate them as large or small, based on your descriptions. Please feel free to expand or change what's in the bullet list.
WardPhoenix, good suggestion about the planner/calendar for events. Is something like that possible in GodWiki, FeRDNYC? --SourceRunner (talk) 15:21, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

I'd say that if you want to throw an event, just go for it. Create a page for it and allow us to help for the preparation.
— User:WardPhoenix

I would agree with that, with one small adjustment: When you decide you definitely are throwing an event, creating a page for it would be the first step in preparing for it, and can serve as the formal announcement of the upcoming event.
I think Djonni worked up to JanuWiki 2019 exactly the right way (whether intentionally or by pure luck): He put out feelers on the forums and in a proposal here at Talk:Main Page, and used those discussions to solicit feedback and take the community's temperature on the idea. Then once he was sure there was sufficient interest that he could commit to definitely doing an event, he pulled the trigger on creating the event page, at which point he had someplace he could link to as a "more information" resource when he made the official announcement(s) about the upcoming event.
At any stage of planning, there's always the possibility that an event could end up getting cancelled for lack of involvement or interest. Things happen. But that risk can be minimized by getting at least a core team on board before putting a lot of work into constructing an event framework for a "maybe" or "possible" event. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 14:43, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Moved this to the main page as it is more appropriate place and also easier to reach (yeah I'm lazy to reach for januwiki page every time on my phone). By the way I think the EIS event would be quite interesting, and as easter is coming i'd suggest we start thinking about it if you really want to kick it. On a side note, I don't think a guideline event would be appropriate. Guidelines are supposed to be wrote by experimented and active users for beginners. That's more something we have to work on with experimented users I'd say. -- WardPhoenix (talk) 23:02, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

That's a fair point, re: the Guidelines. I guess it depends how broadly you define "event". Certainly, you're right, guidelines-updates aren't the sort of free-for-all activity where we'd put out a call to the entire Godville user community for participation. Maybe "an effort", or "a sprint" (to employ some of my least-favorite software development jargon), among those experienced users.
That being said...
  1. A lot of what's lacking in the current Guidelines articles just comes down to formatting, copyediting, structure, and layout fixes — things that could be done by almost anyone, especially with guidance, as there's no real expertise needed. (However, as they also need major content updates, they're definitely not entirely fixable by casual editors alone. But they could be vastly improved.)
  2. Because (as you say) the target audience for the Guidelines is inexperienced users, in my experience it's a huge mistake to write them without any input from users at or near that level. One of the things I learned in software development is that you never have the senior programmer, the one who wrote most of the code and knows every aspect of the software inside-and-out, write the instruction manual. If they try, 90% of the time it'll end up being unintelligible to the "average users" it's supposed to be written for.

    (It's the same reason you NEVER sign up for a freshman-level "Intro to Whatever" class if it's taught by that department's most senior, most published, most brilliant researcher. Very few people whose knowledge of a topic is at that level will be capable of "dumbing things down" sufficiently that they can effectively teach it to students who have virtually no background in the subject. Everything will go right over their heads.)

The two trickiest problems in documentation don't have anything to do with knowledge or accuracy of information: The first is figuring out exactly where your target audience is at in terms of background knowledge and skill level, so that you know which things need to be explained, vs. what they probably already know so you don't waste their time repeating it. The other problem, then, is being able to explain things at that level, without leaving out any of the information they need because it's just implicitly assumed or seems "obvious" to someone with more experience.
...But, all that being said I agree that Guidelines updates wouldn't make sense as an "event" in the JanuWiki mold, where we try to solicit come-one-come-all participation from as many users as possible. Heck, they may not be a very good fit for any sort of organized "group effort" at all — our best bet may be for someone to eventually just dive in and start making Bold changes to define an updated, improved structure for the content. Even if they only update a single Guideline article, once there's an example to work off of, other editors can pitch in to apply the same changes to the rest of the Guidelines. (That sort of example-based, follow-the-leader model is how most content-wide changes propagate here, really. Djonni created the {{hero or heroine}} template set, but he's responsible for only a handful of edits that applied those templates to article content.) -- FeRDNYC (talk) 14:43, 27 March 2019 (UTC)




Subpages for main namespace

According to MW:Help:Subpages, subpages are disabled for the main namespace. Should I submit a Feedback => Other asking for them to add the Main namespace to $wgNamespacesWithSubpages?

If we are going to suggest that guilds use subpages instead of not subpages, shouldn’t they be enabled...? I only noticed this now as I was dealing with HM’s main namespace pages and didn’t see the breadcrumb links. — Emptysora (talk) 21:43, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

That seems like a good thing to submit, though it may not be accepted. Since there are already subpages being used in practice in Main, the primary advantages would be:
  • Better breadcrumb navigation (or, breadcrumb navigation in Main at all)
  • Correct subpage moves if required
The only subpages I know of in Main are Guild (off the top of my head, ref. the HM subpages, Russia/statistics, TFL subpages) and some user pages in the main namespace (including my own Djonni/Shared sandbox... We'll see if the Devs feel it's worth enabling for those cases. With the changes to user templates that are being discussed and worked on, subpages with infobox templates may become more common for guilds. -- Djonni (talk) 13:27, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
Submitted~! — Emptysora (talk) 15:52, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

A Godwiki survey?

One of the thing I had planned at one point of SummerWiki 2019 was a poll to vote for best article. The idea was to make maybe people that didn't participate aware of the articles and make them read those and further if possibly. After all, people lile to vote anonymouse, so I though a poll would have been an idea to present the godwiki.

Soooo, I was wondering if doing an anonymous survey for the Godwiki could lure people there and maybe tell us why people aren't using it that much (or atleast not contributing much). There is thousands of actives gods and wey less active right here. And maybe with those answers we could improve the godwiki to lure more people in.

I have never done such a survey so well, if you thought it's a good idea, let's work on it together once more! -- WardPhoenix (talk) 22:58, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Random samples of questions

  • How often do you use the Godwiki.
  • If you don't use the Godwiki tell us why
    • Too hard to use
    • Don't see why I should use it
    • etc.
  • If you use Godwiki, do you contribute often to it?
  • If you don't contribute to it tell us why.
    • Too complicated
    • Not confident in english
    • Don't care
    • etc.
  • Are you aware of events that happened and could happens on the Godwiki?
  • What do you like on the Godwiki
  • What don't you like on the Godwiki
  • What you would like to see on Godwiki?
  • What do you think could be improved on the Godwiki?
  • Were you aware there are volunteers ready to help you with Godwiki articles?
  • Were you aware that you could create your personnal page on the Godwiki ?
Are you suggesting like a Google Forms or SurveyMonkey survey be posted as an alert on the main page? Since most of my motivation for editing is to make editing as painless as possible for other people, I’m actually completely on-board with with idea.
If we do do a survey, I would suggest making the aggregate results public (eg: announcing it on the main page).
We could also not do this as a one-time thing, but a recurring thing at set intervals.
I would suggest that instead of the conditional question for not contributing, we ask the question and then provide a set of “How much do you agree with the following statements” questions after it. Eg: “The editing guidelines are easy to understand.” (And others... I just can’t think of any)
I’d ask a conditional question “Have you recently posted a request for help on Help:Requests?” And if so, do another “how much agree” set. Like: “I feel that my request was satisfactorily resolved.” (Etc) optionally asking the name of the volunteer/for more info they want to provide.
Lastly I’d suggest on the last page we add an optional field asking for god name (should they want to provide it), and an option to perhaps request that we contact them...? Similarly, an “any additional comments” field.
I know I say all of this, but, the simpler the form, the better. Likewise, the less text and shorter the form, the better. I don’t expect us to do all of what I just wrote, I’m just throwing it out there. — Emptysora (talk) 00:33, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
I'm definitely on-board for this, with a few hesitations.
Getting surveys right is hard. Phrasing questions well requires a lot of thought, so let's not rush. I think we need to keep a few things in mind:
  • Any question that requires typing will cause some people to just stop doing the survey in immediately.
  • We don't have permission to collect personal information, and shouldn't ask for it. No god name fields at all, no personal information at all, neither the respondent's nor others' (e.g., editors who helped them)
  • Information from the community belongs to the community. All answers should be anonymous, anonymized if necessary, and then the data made available to everyone, once we check through to ensure there is no personal or inappropriate information included (all text that is kept would have to comply with the game rules, not mention any individuals or guilds, etc. Any response that wasn't suitable to be made public would need to be discarded)
There's probably others but I'm still working on my first coffee.
A cautious thumbs up from this guy. -- Djonni (talk) 06:39, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I’m going to start going to you, Djonni, when I have questions about privacy practices... heh.

But yes, everything you said is very valid. Maybe at most, on the final screen (very end) an additional comments field that’s entirely optional.

Surveys certainly are hard, my first reaction to a survey from a company I’m not entirely on board with (virtually everything aside from Mozilla/MDN surveys) is, “Ugh. No thank you,” if I am in a good mood, and, “Yeah, no. I don’t need more people tracking me and my opinions,” otherwise. The longer the survey, the more likely I am to abandon it too.

I mean, I’m not attached to the idea of collecting god/volunteer names anyway. That’s probably just useless information at best and asking for trouble at worst. I’m not even attached to having text fields. The “how much do you agree” kind of things are more than enough for the vast majority of the things we might be looking for. Using them results in less text the user has to read too, which should, if even just a little, raise the odds of someone completing the survey. The most successful surveys are short and sweet. Eg: “would you recommend us to a friend?” (Y/N), “why?” (Text), end of form. — Emptysora (talk) 07:38, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

A draft of what could be done as a survey. Updated the link for the draft, try to answer it so I can see how the results appears and give feedback about it if you don't mind! --WardPhoenix (talk) 14:45, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
Some informations from what I can see at the moments: there is possibility to keep the survey anonymous easily (just a parameter to check) and there is detailled results for each questions even, written ones. --WardPhoenix (talk) 14:20, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Pages marked for deletion tend to redirect here

I don't think this is a good practice. See this page for a list of redirects to the main page. --Uni34 (talk) 08:14, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Yup, I completely agree. The main page redirects came first in most cases, and were then marked for deletion. I argued for the redirects to simply be replaced with {{Delete}}, as I felt then and still do that those redirects are very disorientating for people especially for people who don't understand how wikis work. But this conversation happened a while ago, (I can't find it now) and folks didn't seem to agree with me, so I started adding {{Delete}} to those redirects as I came across them, leaving the redirects in place.
But, since someone else has brought it up again... I completely agree, redirecting hundreds of random unneeded pages to the Main Page instead of marking then for deletion with a clear reason was, I think, always a bad idea! I'd love to get rid of aaallllll those redirects if those here now agree that it's a good idea. -- Djonni (talk) 08:33, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
👍-- WardPhoenix (talk) 01:53, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Note about creating a special kind of article

See this post. The idea is interesting , but we should considerate if we need to create one article regrouping all of those advices or having those advices in every concerned articles (dungeon/sail/etc)

Both, it will be a pain to keep updated, but that way new people coming in will know their needs are being considered and met. In every page, so that everyone is integrated within the community. --Sand Devil (talk) 21:00, 24 January 2020 (UTC)