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== Encouraging use of user talk pages ==
  
==Mobile layout of main page==
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So, I've written [[User:FeRDNYC/User Talk Message|this message]], which I'm thinking of going around and (manually) placing on the User talk pages of everyone whose User: page is redirected to the main-article space, to point out that they won't receive talk-page message notifications unless they use their corresponding user talk page.
I'd be great if this wiki could have a "mobile version" or something, but I don't know how to properly check for that. --[[User:ElectroChip|ElectroChip]] ([[User talk:ElectroChip|talk]]) 15:10, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
 
  
:I agree (as do most users, I think) that the main page has some significant layout problems on mobile (mainly around the grey '''Welcome to the GodWiki''' block at the top). Reading [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]]'s [[#HTML layout and the width attribute|brief summary below]] of the challenges of setting layouts can give you some idea why, but the root of the problem is that, with no active admin at the moment, there's nobody right now with the powers required to modernise the site's CSS to be responsive to the dimensions of the window. Anything we do in the meantime will be a kludgy hack that ''might'' improve some layout issues, but generally we'll have to choose between the front page looking great on desktop ''or'' on mobile, not both.
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(This covers two types of users:)
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# Those with user talk pages like [[User talk:BlueStapler]], [[User talk:Hershey Almighty]], etc. that are redirected to [[Talk:BlueStapler]], [[Talk:Hershey Almighty]], etc.  
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# Users like [[User:Hairplug4men]], [[User:EJ Rose]], etc. with redirected User pages, who have no redirect for their user talk page.
  
:That said, if anybody wants to take a bash at a rebuild of said grey block, please do! I'd suggest pasting any proposed changes into this talk page first so that we can all compare how they go on our various desktop and mobile screens first :) --[[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 09:04, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
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Basically it's about 50 people, I have a whole list. '''Most''' of them are probably not active users, but I'd plan to contact them all regardless. If they never see it, oh well. If they do, then great.
:: See [[User:FeRDNYC/Sandbox]] — it's very much a WIP, but in my testing it ''sizes'' properly (but not "formats" 100% properly, '''yet''') on mobile devices. The gray-box bulleted items are coded as a single bulleted list, which uses a fairly new (past 3-4 years) CSS column-formatting feature to split itself up according to the available space. So, hopefully it's supported everywhere it needs to be. <strike>I already have a plan to clean up the strip of links at the bottom of the gray box, and</strike> I'm still working out the balancing of the various sections ''below'' the gray box so that they don't get chopped up by the column balancing. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 22:35, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
 
::: Never mind the struck-out part, I sorted that out. I removed a couple of items from the horizontal list (the Guidebook and the Categories list), because (a) they're both available in the sidebar, and (b) in the case of the Guidebook, I just feel it's a ''lot'' dated, and could really use some updating if we want to point people at it.
 
::: That part of the box is formatted as four one-item columns, which reduces a '''''little''''' weirdly as it narrows. (It first goes down to three columns, but since there are only four items it only fills the left two of them, leaving a big empty area to the right. Then it drops to two columns and everything balances again.) But honestly, as a tradeoff for it being readable on all screen sizes I think that's acceptable. Please do weigh in if you have any thoughts, though. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 23:20, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
 
  
::::I admit, I had noticed the edits to your sandbox and had a peek the other day. I'm excited about the changes and progress, and look forward to a modernised main page! :) One note &mdash; with the 2 columns reflowing in the lower section, on desktop I am currently seeing "Edition May 14, 2018" orphaned at the top of the second column. I'm not sure if there's any sane way to prevent that behaviour, just worth noting at this stage.
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I just wanted to solicit feedback before I start.
::::And yes, the Guidebook pages need a ''huge'' amount of work. I'd mentally earmarked that... for mañana. --[[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 02:12, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
 
::::: Yeah, that issue is what I was referring to, with my (somewhat redundant, as I balance the balanced balancing) note about "working out the balancing of the various sections ''below'' the gray box so that they don't get chopped up by the column balancing." It's not ''meant'' to do that — and honestly, if it '''wasn't''' doing that I'd probably consider it complete, since with the horizontal list "fixed" well enough it's kind of the only issue left — but currently, it still '''is''' doing that. And I suspect is going to keep doing that, as long as I'm (ab)using columns for that part of the layout.
 
::::: I'll probably have to switch that section from CSS columns to a different layout system, possibly CSS flexbox, to make it keep those DIVs intact. Just as soon as I work out how (or if) I can convince flexbox-or-whatever to auto-adjust to width, the way columns does so nicely. (And without requiring any media queries, which inline styling can't use.) -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 02:52, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
 
{{outdent|::::::}}Okay, checkout [[User:FeRDNYC/Sandbox]] again, which I think is now ready as a complete reimplementation of the [[Main Page]] that works at all display widths, including on mobile. It depends on two new-''er'' technologies, CSS columns and CSS flexbox, but support for both of those was sorted out long enough ago that everything seems to support them now, including the Godville app's browser (at least on Android). So, it should reflow to a comfortable layout everywhere, on screens both wide and narrow. On very narrow screens, note that the Intro to Godwiki section actually places itself '''before''' the Featured Article section, an enhancement made possible by flexbox. (The top row is actually a two-item flexbox, flowing in row-'''reverse''' order, and the Intro section is the ''first'' item in that part of the page.) -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 02:07, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
 
: So, all of this nonsense with the new infoboxes makes me realize that I'll need to check how [[User:FeRDNYC/Sandbox]] looks in the WPTouch skin, in addition to the other two (Vector/desktop and Minerva/mobile). Not looking forward to that, so I think I'll put it off until another day. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 21:10, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 
  
::While on hold on my phone (sigh) I took the time to check this all out and it looks just fine to me. I mean... [https://imgur.com/a/jYHkInm for given value of fine].
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With [[Special:ExpandTemplates]], you can see what the message would look like when it's placed on {{u|Djonni}}'s talk page (as an example). Click the following url:  
::It looks fantastic on desktop and mobile browser (Vector & Minerva) and I think it should go live immediately. The only thing worth considering is to add a note to the bottom with the [http://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&mobileaction=toggle_view_mobile magic link] for WPTouch users. Perhaps:
 
  
:::<code><nowiki>Enable [http://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=Main_Page&mobileaction=toggle_view_mobile mobile-friendly view].</nowiki></code>
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{{fullurl:Special:ExpandTemplates|wpInput=%7b%7bsafesubst:User:FeRDNYC/User+Talk+Message%7d%7d&wpContextTitle=User+talk:Djonni}}
  
::or something similarly straightforward would be enough? --[[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 06:00, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
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You'll see the formatted message at the bottom of the page. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 01:51, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
  
::: Yeah, I was thinking I'd look in the CSS for a class that might only be visible in WPTouch, in which case that link could be hidden behind that. There might not be one, but it can't hurt to look. It just means I have to dig through the three governing CSS files, which I haven't done yet.
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::It seems some people keeps on redirect their user page to another page for some reasons, tried to leave messages but it don't seem to reach through. Well it's not really a serious issue but still happens. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 16:03, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
  
::: As far as bringing it live... based on your screenshots (thanks!), I ''may'' be able to improve the WPTouch rendering a bit, first. Like, the squished-together lettering of the title is clearly a line-height issue, I should be able to specify a value to get it to stop doing that, so let me see if I can squeeze that in.
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::: Honestly, though, that's ''fine'' and if people want to do it then more power to 'em. (There are all sorts of reasons why someone might want to, including '''intending''' their user page to be editable by other people. That's the reason {{user|Djonni}} specifically gives on his [[User talk:Djonni|talk page]].) If people want to keep a "god" page in the article namespace, as long as it's properly categorized no harm done. It's ''only'' when the corresponding talk page isn't redirected '''back''' to User talk: space that there's a down side. But it works just fine to maintain a non-<code>User:Foo</code> userpage at <code>Foo</code>, with a <code>Talk:Foo</code> page that redirects to <code>User talk:foo</code>, and doing that means they won't miss notifications. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 20:49, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
  
::: I don't know why the random image isn't... like... randoming. Or image-ing. One of those. But I'll try to figure it out. (Just, not very hard, because I care thiiiis 👌 much TBH.) -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 06:40, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
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:::: Sorry, the example-message URL above was "down" for a couple of weeks, as I'd repurposed the page in question to do canvassing for the JanuWiki post-mortem and forgot to set it back afterwards. Anyway, it's working again now. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 16:54, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
  
:::: OK, significant changes. I fixed the line height for the first two parts of the gray-box header. And, this?
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::::: I'm joining this conversation pretty late, and [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] hasn't been around the wiki since April... does anyone know if he went ahead with the plan? I think it's a very good idea, speaking from my own experience with an unredirected talk page! -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 09:03, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
::::: "I was thinking I'd look in the CSS for a class that might only be visible in WPTouch..."
 
:::: Believe it or not, I found one. Or, a combination of a class and an ID, each of which is hidden in either Vector or Minerva, but neither in WPTouch. So, by abusing those together, I've set it up so that at the ''far, far'' bottom of the page, a link to switch to the mobile skin should appear '''only''' when the page is viewed with the WPTouch skin.
 
  
:::: Haven't really looked at the random image thing all that closely, yet. It seems to be mostly working OK for me, so it's ''possible'' nothing's wrong, and you just caught a bad image pull when you took the screenshot. Possible. (Unlikely.) -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 09:02, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
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I don't think he end up doing it, but I could be wrong.--[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 13:29, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
  
:::: Oh, DUH. Actually, there was nothing wrong with the randomimage in your screenshot, it just happened to catch that tiny "fast-forward" type icon, so the caption squished underneath it. Well, that'll happen. (I actually could move the text ''out'' of the image caption, now that I've got the page resizing properly, and it wouldn't do that anymore. I'll mull it over. Wouldn't really make too-small image pulls all '''that''' much prettier, anyway.)
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:Yeah, alright. I found his draft at [[User:FeRDNYC/User Talk Message]]. I think it's a bit wordy personally, and gets a little lost in the weeds about the history of notifications on mediawiki sites, and needs a heavy edit. But I think his idea is really good and we should work up a better draft and go ahead with it.
  
:::: So, I guess this is maybe ready already, now? Hmm. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 09:05, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
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:It's a shame he isn't around at the moment (I'll leave him a talkback regardless!) because he went to the trouble of compiling a list of the affected users and we don't have it! I'll have to do that myself. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 15:07, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
  
::::: What the hey. Taking live. If it breaks anything I'm '''sure''' we'll hear about it. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 05:33, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
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== Theming or Other Event Brainstorms ==
  
::::: I got rid of the text in the random image box entirely, BTW. It's already titled "Random Image", so the caption was really kind of redundant. And it had a tendency to format poorly with different sized images, and/or different sized screens/skins. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 06:40, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
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{{u|FeRDNYC}} makes a really good point above that two big events a year would be amazing, but that there's also opportunities for smaller events. With the basis that JanuWiki should now be an annual event, perhaps this should be a list of other event or drive ideas (big and small) that we could do, to figure out how we could space things to still get necessary stuff done. -- [[User:SourceRunner|SourceRunner]] ([[User talk:SourceRunner|talk]]) 17:37, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
  
{{Outdent|:::::}}My goodness it looks '''SO''' good. Haven't checked it in WPTouch (because ''yech'') but certainly on all my devices in both of the other stylesheets it looks outstanding.
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* '''JanuWiki 2020: Year of the WikiGnome/GodWikiStmas''' -- Big event. Next JanuWiki. Starts when? Ends January 31, 2020. Wrap-up ends February 29, 2020. Theming granularity? Process certainties?
Though a part of me kinda misses how inaccurately named the ''Featured Article of the Week'' was 😋 --[[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 17:37, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 
  
:Yup, even on ''yech'' WPTouch it looks fantastic (and is even more noticeable in contrast to how it was). One thing I've only just realised — on the mobile skins there's no link to [[Talk:Main Page]]. It lacks the normal "Discuss" button at the bottom. I'm so used to coming here from [[Special:RecentChanges|recent changes]] that I'd never even noticed that before. Makes it harder for folks on mobile devices to find this, or even know it's here. '''#mobileproblems''' --[[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 17:54, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
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* '''Guidelines and Guide Resources Drive'''
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(Please expand)
  
:: Heh. "Though a part of me kinda misses how inaccurately named the ''Featured Article of the Week'' was" — I'd actually changed that last week, on the old version, so that predates this update.  
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* '''Easter Interlink Special''' -- Small event. EIS Eternal would be willing to sponsor a small wiki event during the Easter week or two weeks, with the object of adding links between pages on GodWiki (with reasonable reasons for doing so). One of the wiki strengths is the ability to create an ecosystem of lore, and the best way to explore that is following links between pages. So there could be the a specific event that GodWiki editors and content creators each chose a pair of pages to interlink, and write the lore between them that explains their relationships in the ecosystem and links the two. A report to the "Help Request" page when finished a pairing would make the pair's linker eligible for a reward of some sort after EIS checks that it has been done and does make sense.
  
:: I had, at some point, noticed that there's no link here from the main page, making it an especially poor place to use for announcements and such. Oh well. I'm developing a very zen ability to just not really care about mobile's foibles, as there are so many. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 20:22, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
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* '''Trans-Lore-Ation''' -- Small event. A lot of Godville lore is in the forums and tucked away in little sections of personal chronicles. As players, we in common tend to "know" this lore to be true, but not have it on GodWiki. How about a small event where people scavenger-hunt their favorite descriptions of towns, taverns, monsters, and Godville myths from the older parts of forums and the crannies of guild and personal pages, then add excerpts and possible links to the applicable pages in GodWiki.
  
::: I added a note at the bottom of {{tl|Mainpageintro}} about the main page's Discussion area, with a link to it for mobile users. Which makes the Intro box quite a bit longer than the Featured Article box, but... meh. Now we have the option to feature longer portions of the selected article, if we want. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 04:37, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
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* '''Stub It Out''' -- Large event. Survey what articles with the "Stub" tag are still stubs, and remove tags where appropriate. Expand articles that are still stubs.
  
==Many GodWiki pages need to be deleted==
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* '''"Wherefore ART Thou?"''' -- Large event(?). Adding art to the "picture needed" category articles. Some artists need a long time to plan, so this may need to be a slow or multi-phase event.
There are a lot of junk/clickbait pages that just redirect to the main page. Perhaps a moderator/administrator could look into removing them? --[[User:ElectroChip|ElectroChip]] ([[User talk:ElectroChip|talk]]) 16:22, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
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: Could be associated with the stub event maybe?
  
:There are certainly a lot of dead pages on the Wiki, which sadly right now doesn't have an active administrator other than the actual Godville Admin team who spending all their time hard at work on improving the actual game and its content for us all.
 
  
:For now, we all can help a hypothetical future administrator do a deep clean of the wiki by adding the {{tl|delete}} template to any page that you think an admin should remove one day. It's probably wise to provide a reason why you feel a page deserves deleting too, by doing something like <code><nowiki>{{delete|This page violates CP-symmetry and may cause vacuum decay, ending the Universe.}}</nowiki></code>
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::: Sounds like there is some good ideas ready for the oven. I'd say that if you want to throw an event, just go for it. Create a page for it and allow us to help for the preparation.
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:::Maybe we should make like a planner for upcomming events. By the way, talks about upcomming event may be more appropriate on the main talk
  
:All pages that have the {{tl|delete}} template on them appear in [[:Category:Marked for deletion]]. This list will be one of the first stops, I expect, for any future admin to do a clean-out. (''Hello hypothetical future admin, please know, if you're reading this, that we understand the very large pile of work you've been left with and deeply appreciate your hypothetical future work!'')--[[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 09:04, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
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::: As for JanuWiki2020 (or GodWikiStmas maybe), I'd say we have the time to see it coming. Let's care of other event before.
  
:: Just as a point of information, the pages that [[User:ElectroChip|ElectroChip]] is talking about that "just redirect to the main page" most likely ''have'' been deleted, which is '''why''' they redirect to the main page -- without adminship, other users can't delete pages, but they can replace spammy/inappropriate page content with a quick <code><nowiki>#redirect[[Main Page]]</nowiki></code> to obliterate everything except the page title. I know that [[User:BlueStapler|BlueStapler]], and probably others, have taken the initiative to wipe out page-level spam and vandalism in that way, when necessary.
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::: --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 23:55, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
  
:: For truly deletion-worthy articles that just shouldn't be here at all, that's probably a better approach than setting the delete template since, right now, there's simply no expectation that'll ever be responded to.
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:::: As another idea for a possible event (I don't even know if it would be considered big or small), [[:Category:Pictures needed]] is up to 314 entries. That's 314 ''existing'' articles (primarily ones that use {{tlx|Monster}}, {{tlx|Artifact}}, or {{tlx|Equipment}}) which don't have an image to go with their subject. Trimming that list down a bit could also be a good way to get non-writers involved in creating wiki content. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 06:39, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
  
:: The delete template still has its purpose, as it's a good way to indicate things like Templates that are no longer useful, or userspace subpages that the user no longer needs (since we can't even delete pages from our own userspace, annoyingly). -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 14:43, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
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::::: Oh, yes, and [[:Category:Stubs]] is up to 552 articles that (in theory) need fleshing-out.
  
:::I actually find it a little disorienting when an otherwise blank page simply redirects to the Main Page, particularly on mobile where redirects aren't breadcrumbed. Perhaps it's a preference-driven thing &mdash; I'd rather a clear {{tl|delete}} tag on a dead page than an unexplained redirect to an unrelated default page. I also imagine a Hypothetical Future Admin finding a straightforward (if large) list of [[:Category:Marked for deletion|pages marked for deletion]] a little simpler than having to also go through the list of  [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Main_Page&hidelinks=1&hidetrans=1 pages that redirect to the Main Page], though perhaps I'm too optimistic about the advent of the HFA. I seem to be an HFA Adventist, come to think of it, and act as if I believe that I can immanentize the coming of the HFA by preparing the Godwiki for His or Her manifestation... Hmmm. --[[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 03:29, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
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::::: I say "in theory" because some of them may not ''really'' be stubs, having been expanded since they were tagged that way. In the "Advanced options" at the bottom of the [[Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rendering|appearance preferences]] is the option "Threshold for stub link formatting". It takes a length (in bytes) an article's source must be so it's not considered a stub. Links to all articles shorter than that threshold will be colored with a darker shade of red than the standard {{fake redlink|redlink}} coloring.  
  
:::: I won't dispute that it's disorienting, but how frequently does this really come up, in '''normal''' wiki use? Meaning, if you're not someone poking around behind the scenes?
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::::: I currently have that preference set to 1000 bytes, and still some of the items in [[:Category:Stubs]] are colored blue. It's certainly ''possible'' for an article that's over 1000 bytes long to also be a stub, but it's also possible that there's already plenty of content there and the stub designation is outdated / overzealous. I'd say maybe 10-15% of the category's members show non-stub link coloring. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 07:00, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
:::: Those articles shouldn't be linked to from anywhere, so the only way they're likely to be found by normal users is in search results. For those users, landing on a {{tl|delete}} page dead-ends them while showing no useful information. They don't '''care''' that a page is flagged for deletion. OTOH, being redirected to the main page means they can continue browsing the wiki. For the average user with no interest in the administrivia of the wiki, that's likely the preferable outcome. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 12:29, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
 
  
===Defunct Guild pages===
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:::::: These are great ideas for events, {{u|WardPhoenix}} and {{u|FeRDNYC}}. I've added them to the bullet point list above, and tried to evaluate them as large or small, based on your descriptions. Please feel free to expand or change what's in the bullet list.
A ''very'' large proportion of [[Special:FewestRevisions|dead]], [[Special:ShortPages|short]], [[Special:LonelyPages|unlinked]], [[Special:UncategorizedPages|uncategorised]] pages are stubs that were created for guilds that no longer exist. I'm in two minds about how these pages should be treated, but I have a proposal.
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:::::: {{u|WardPhoenix}}, good suggestion about the planner/calendar for events. Is something like that possible in GodWiki, {{u|FeRDNYC}}? --[[User:SourceRunner|SourceRunner]] ([[User talk:SourceRunner|talk]]) 15:21, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
  
* I think we should have a new '''Dead guilds''' category (as sub-category of [[:Category:Guilds]])
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::::::: {{tqb|I'd say that if you want to throw an event, just go for it. Create a page for it and allow us to help for the preparation.|WardPhoenix}}
* I think we should have a new {{tl|deadguild}} template that:
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::::::: I would agree with that, with one small adjustment: When you decide you ''definitely '''are''''' throwing an event, creating a page for it would be the first step in preparing for it, and can serve as the formal announcement of the upcoming event.  
** Uses the {{tl|delete}} template as a basis, with similar design;
 
** States that this guild is "not widely known on Godville";
 
** Gives a link back to the https://godvillegame.com/stats/guild/(guild_name) so it's easy to check if the guild remains dead at any time;
 
** Categorises the tagged page as a dead guild, obviously.
 
  
That way these pages aren't ''necessarily'' [[:Category:Marked for deletion|marked for deletion]] as such, but they are ready for a hypothetical future admin (HFA) to do a spring clean if the HFA decides to slough off that particular kind of dead weight. (''Hello HFA, thanks again for your hypothetical future work!)
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::::::: I think {{u|Djonni}} worked up to [[JanuWiki 2019]] exactly the right way (whether intentionally or by pure luck): He put out feelers on the forums and in a proposal here at [[Talk:Main Page]], and used those discussions to solicit feedback and take the community's temperature on the idea. Then once he was sure there was sufficient interest that he could commit to definitely doing an event, he pulled the trigger on creating the event page, at which point he had someplace he could link to as a "more information" resource when he made the official announcement(s) about the upcoming event.
  
I would likewise propose that a page only be a candidate for tagging with {{tl|deadguild}} if:
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::::::: At any stage of planning, there's always the possibility that an event could end up getting cancelled for lack of involvement or interest. Things happen. But that risk can be minimized by getting at least a core team on board ''before'' putting a lot of work into constructing an event framework for a "maybe" or "possible" event. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 14:43, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
* The URL for the guild states that it is "not widely known on Godville";
 
* There have been no edits to the page for... lets say, 6 months? 12 months? This would allow baby guilds to grow enough to have a stat page.
 
  
The guild page could easily be checked by editing the candidate page, inserting the template, previewing the edit, and clicking the link in the template before saving your change.
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Moved this to the main page as it is more appropriate place and also easier to reach (yeah I'm lazy to reach for januwiki page every time on my phone). By the way I think the EIS event would be quite interesting, and as easter is coming i'd suggest we start thinking about it if you really want to kick it.
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On a side note, I don't think a guideline event would be appropriate. Guidelines are supposed to be wrote by experimented and active users for beginners. That's more something we have to work on with experimented users I'd say.  
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-- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 23:02, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
  
Specifically, as an example:
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: That's a fair point, re: the Guidelines. I guess it depends how broadly you define "event". Certainly, you're right, guidelines-updates aren't the sort of free-for-all activity where we'd put out a call to the entire Godville user community for participation. Maybe "an effort", or "a sprint" (to employ some of my least-favorite software development jargon), ''among'' those experienced users.
  
{{Sign
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: That being said...
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:# A ''lot'' of what's lacking in the current Guidelines articles just comes down to formatting, copyediting, structure, and layout fixes — things that ''could'' be done by almost anyone, especially with guidance, as there's no real expertise needed. (However, as they '''also''' need major content updates, they're definitely not ''entirely'' fixable by casual editors alone. But they could be vastly improved.)
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:# Because (as you say) the target audience for the Guidelines is inexperienced users, in my experience it's a huge mistake to write them '''without''' any input from users at or near that level. One of the things I learned in software development is that you never have the senior programmer, the one who wrote most of the code and knows every aspect of the software inside-and-out, write the instruction manual. If they try, 90% of the time it'll end up being unintelligible to the "average users" it's supposed to be written for. <p>(It's the same reason you NEVER sign up for a freshman-level "Intro to Whatever" class if it's taught by that department's most senior, most published, most brilliant researcher. Very few people whose knowledge of a topic is at that level will be capable of "dumbing things down" sufficiently that they can effectively teach it to students who have virtually no background in the subject. Everything will go right over their heads.)</p>
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|text=The [http://godvillegame.com/stats/guild/Alcyone guild stats page] matching this article states that ''The “Alcyone” guild is not widely known in Godville.'' If you are a member of this guild, or can confirm that the guild now exists, please remove this template.
 
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Any thoughts on this from anyone? --[[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 00:40, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
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: The two trickiest problems in documentation don't have anything to do with knowledge or accuracy of information: The first is figuring out exactly where your target audience is at in terms of background knowledge and skill level, so that you know which things need to be explained, vs. what they probably already know so you don't waste their time repeating it. The other problem, then, is being ''able'' to explain things at that level, without leaving out any of the information they need because it's just implicitly assumed or seems "obvious" to someone with more experience.
  
==HTML layout and the <code>width</code> attribute==
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: ...But, all that being said I agree that Guidelines updates wouldn't make sense as an "event" in the JanuWiki mold, where we try to solicit come-one-come-all participation from as many users as possible. Heck, they may not be a very good fit for any sort of organized "group effort" at all — our best bet may be for someone to eventually just dive in and start making [[wikipedia:WP:BOLD|Bold]] changes to define an updated, improved structure for the content. Even if they only update a single Guideline article, once there's an example to work off of, other editors can pitch in to apply the same changes to the rest of the Guidelines. (That sort of example-based, follow-the-leader model is how ''most'' content-wide changes propagate here, really. Djonni created the {{tlx|hero or heroine}} template set, but he's responsible for only a handful of edits that applied those templates to article content.) -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 14:43, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
It's months old, but I'm manually reversing one of [[User:Holy Spirit of Hell|Holy Spirit of Hell]]'s [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=Main_Page&diff=prev&oldid=76563 good-faith edits] to the layout of the main page, because it blew out the width of the page beyond the right edge of the viewport. In doing so, I wanted to drop a quick note about dimensions in HTML layout and the <code>width</code> attribute. (This isn't meant to shame you or call you out, [[User:Holy Spirit of Hell|Holy Spirit of Hell]], and the whole reason I'm posting this info '''here''', instead of on your talk page or similar, is that I'm sure there are multiple people who could benefit from it.)  
 
  
Also, let me say that the following is at the very least '''vastly''' oversimplified. (Yes, even considering how long it is.) You should really be getting this sort of knowledge from good sources like [https://developer.mozilla.org/ Mozilla Developer Network (MDN)] or even "meh" sources like [http://w3schools.com w3schools], not from me. Hell, I'm sure at ''least'' one thing I'm about to say is just plain wrong... I just don't know which one(s)!
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== JanuWiki 2020 Ideas and Planning ==
  
Specifying dimensions for layout elements in HTML is generally fraught with peril. But there are different levels of peril:
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Heya once again! I did a bit of poking around in the JanuWiki 2019 page, and couldn't find any plans for what the next theme is gonna be. It never hurts to start planning early, so I kinda decided to start gathering a few ideas. After looking around the internet for some potential New Year themes, I have three potential suggestions:
* Specifying exact '''pixel''' dimensions (e.g. <code>width="640px"</code>) is ''evil'' and should be avoided at all costs, it's one of the main things that makes pages lay out improperly in mobile browsers, just for starters. (Image dimensions are ''somewhat'' of an exception to this, though even there it's problematic if images are placed at fixed sizes with no regard for how they affect the content layout on different size screens.) '''Point''' size dimensions (<code>width="10pt"</code>) fall into the same category, as points are a fixed-size unit that doesn't scale.
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# A glasses/vision-related theme. It's going to be 2020 - it shall be the year of perfect vision and clarity!
* Specifying dimensions in '''em''' units (<code>width="10em"</code>) is slightly better, as ems are related to the font size the content is displayed at, so they'll be autoscaled to match the device's base font size (as long as the font size isn't overridden using a pixel or point size!) Still, while these dimensions autoscale to fit the display size, they're frequently not predictable enough to use for layout. There is also the '''rem''' unit (<code>width="10rem"</code>) which is relative to the ''root'' font size, making it slightly more predictable since it means the same thing everywhere on the page, no matter what font size is set for that content.
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# Something related to time. Similar reason as the first one (mostly because I already anticipate all of the 'hindsight is 20/20' puns that the year will bring), but there's also the whole 'marking of another year going by'. Sounds a bit on the melodramatic side, though.
* Specifying dimensions in '''percentages''', if one must specify dimensions at all, is best, and for the most part it's how Godwiki is laid out. But it's important to know what those percentages mean.
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# Chinese zodiac time! Now, there isn't exactly a whole lot of potential rodent-themed articles on here (2020 is the year of the Rat, after all), but I did some cross-referencing! Apparently there are Chinese elemental years too, and next year's element is going to be Metal. So, Metal/Rat articles?
** A percentage width in HTML is interpreted ''relative to the width of the element's container''.
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I know it's really early, but I really want to help the next JanuWiki be like the first one (cuz seriously, the sheer number of content was really amazing + fun to read)! What do you guys think? --[[User:Arcanedreamer|Arcanedreamer]] ([[User talk:Arcanedreamer|talk]]) 02:47, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
** For that reason, <code>width="100%"</code> is '''by far''' the most commonly-used dimension in HTML layout, and it simply means "expand to fill all of the horizontal space available to me".
 
** Percentages ''less'' than 100% are used when elements are placed side-by-side within the same container, to adjust how how the available space is allocated among them. Generally, if percentage widths less than 100% are used, they should be specified on multiple elements laid out horizontally, so that they all '''add up''' to no more than 100%, and ideally to exactly 100%.
 
** Percentages ''greater'' than 100% tell an element to grow larger than its container, which is almost never what you want to do and will cause all sorts of problems, from elements overlapping to elements sticking out past the edge of the screen. Browsers will try to correct for some of this (by autosizing child elements to smaller than the >100% container size, for example) but at the very least you'll end up with a jorizontal scroll bar for no good reason.)
 
  
So, that's why changing two <code>width="100%"</code> elements to <code>width="110%"</code> and <code>width="90%"</code> will '''never''' look as intended. The percentages still add up to the same (200%). The total '''width''' of the elements is ''nearly'' the same. (If their containers are different widths it won't be ''exactly'' the same, though. Observe: 110% of <code>600px</code> is <code>660px</code> but 90% of <code>400px</code> is <code>360px</code>, so the total width increased from 600+400 = <code>1000px</code> to 660+360 = <code>1020px</code>.) But instead of two balanced elements, we've now got one element that doesn't fill its container, and leaves wasted space alongside it, and another element that sticks out of its container and disturbs the layout of the surrounding content. The correct way to adjust the width of <code>width="100%"</code> elements is to find which of their ''containers'' define the respective widths (using something other than <code>width="100%"</code>, either smaller percentages or specific units) and adjust '''those''' dimensions, while leaving the elements in question set to <code>width="100%"</code> as, again, that just means "fill my available space".
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: [[User:Arcanedreamer|Arcanedreamer]], I actually think that those are pretty great ideas! I for one have try to give JanuWiki 2020 any serious thought, but using a 20/20 theme is a brilliant thought!
  
Oh, and last but far from least:
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: One (really great) thing that happened with JanuWiki 2019 is that as the event rolled on we had to expand and extend it to new themes, bring more ideas into the event, and keep offering don't exciting new ideas for people who just didn't get inputted enough by the first tranche of suggestions. So having a handful of interesting, related-ish, but quite diverse options is really valuable. I think working with the 20/20 concepts you've suggested first (vision, hindsight, foresight, time) is an excellent focal point (pun intended), with metal and rodent articles tucked up our sleeves for when/if we need to grow the theme. For 2019, we started all about beer, and from brainstorming and adapting we added bosses, lions, tigers, and bears over the month. So we've seen that a diverse and interesting collection of ideas can really help catch the interest of folks who might only like one part of it.
* Best by far is when we can avoid specifying widths at all, and allow HTML to flow the elements automatically. The width of block elements will automatically expand to fit the content they contain, up to the size of ''their'' containers. That's usually what we want. <code>width="auto"</code> makes this explicit, and specifying it can be useful if explicit widths were set elsewhere that need to be uninherited. <code>width="auto"</code> is also better than <code>width="100%"</code> because it accounts for things like padding and margins, whereas setting 100% width can force elements into those spacers (or force those spacers beyond the screen borders) under certain circumstances.
 
-- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 14:04, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
 
  
I'm actually going to amend this, some, to say that when talking about the '''entire''' page width (or, the entire content-area width, not counting things like sidebars), percentage widths are ''also'' some of the worst things you can use. In those contexts, "real" dimensions like <code>em</code> widths are far better than percentages, because those widths scale intelligently with the screen size, whereas percentage widths '''don't'''.
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: Later today I'll do some surveying to see what missing or stubbed articles will be captured by these themes, and that will give us a more concrete notion of how they would look for an event! -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 08:38, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
  
Some of the biggest problems we've had with formatting the wiki to be mobile-friendly have been with content formatted with something like <code>width=60%</code> or whatever. The problem is that the same content is going to take up 60% of the width of '''any''' screen it's displayed on — which is probably fine, for a desktop browser, but clearly is going to be a problem in a phone browser.  
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::Themes' Ideas looks good. I wonder if doing a survey on the forums could be usefull to see if people would be willing to participate in the event, and what they think could be improved compared to previous ones. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 18:33, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
  
In fact, it was only by setting the width of {{tl|Diary}} and {{tl|Diaryquest}} to pixel values that I was able to make them readable on mobile browsers. (And I'm experimenting now with changing those widths to <code>em</code> widths, to better scale to different pixel densities.) By the same token, updating the [[Main Page]] sections to use <code>em</code> widths instead of <code>width=55%</code> and <code>width=45%</code> was a big part of creating the new mobile-friendly layout. (The other part was formatting them with CSS flexbox, so that they'll automatically rearrange themselves vertically if there isn't enough room on the screen to fit them side-by-side.) -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 10:04, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
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::: I'm actually really happy you guys like my ideas! So, thing is, I already did [[User:Arcanedreamer#Art_Stuff|a bit of artwork]] in anticipation of JanuWiki 2020. I'm perfectly fine with doing a couple more items in order to make the event look even better, but I'd like to know ahead of time if that's okay. And if so, maybe let me know ASAP if there's any specific items you guys would want so that I don't have to do a rush job at the last minute? --[[User:Arcanedreamer|Arcanedreamer]] ([[User talk:Arcanedreamer|talk]]) 19:49, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
  
:: {{tl|Diary}} and {{tl|Diaryquest}} now both specify their minimum width or width (respectively) as <code>18em</code>, to better scale with different screen dimensions '''and''' pixel densities. That has almost certainly changed the size of your existing boxes, and may even have changed it ''differently'' on different screens. Sorry, but OTOH this can also serve as a reminder that the Web is not a desktop publishing platform, and is not intended to be laid out like a magazine. Web content will always be resized and reformatted to serve the needs and interests of the reader, not the author — and this is as it should be. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 15:22, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
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:::: So, I got around to that thing I said I would do yesterday... I've started a survey of possible articles for the two theme groups ('''20/20''' and '''Metal Rat''') at [[Djonni/Shared sandbox]] (note that I've intentionally kept that out of my <code>User:</code> area so that everybody can tinker with, improve or extend it). I was pretty inclusive about what I captured for the 20/20 theme, and only just started on the Metal Rat articles (I've saved it in progress, I'll carry on and on anon. 🎵🎶''Alalalalalonglonglilonglonglong, sing it''🎶🎵
  
== New shortcuts for numbers with superscripted ordinal (e.g. {{1st}}) ==
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:::: I definitely agree [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]], we should take this to the forums, but before w're ready to do that we should have a very clear idea of what the theme ideas we're presenting are, I think, so that folks there have some concrete, fully though out and fleshed out things to discuss and contribute to. Let's discuss and refine the articles and concepts a little more together here first!
  
I just borrowed the {{tl|Ordinal}} template from Wikipedia, and created convenience templates {{tl|1st}} {{tl|2nd}} and {{tl|3rd}} for anyone who wants to write numbers all ''fancy'', like:
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:::: And for readers who are following this but have not yet joined the conversation &mdash; '''''please''''' share your thoughts, good, bad, or whatever they may be!
  
{|class="wikitable" style="text-align: right"
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:::: [[User:Arcanedreamer|Arcanedreamer]], whoa, I'm pretty impressed by your artwork there! Personally I think that's a great piece of decoration for the main page announcement, and will probably be useful in places on the main event page too, fantastic work! Something that I discovered doing the theme survey &mdash; '''Did You Know''' that there's actually a [[Steel Rat]] monster in Godville? I feel like the Steel Rat would make an excellent mascot for JanuWiki 2020, regardless of how the theming conversation goes, what do you guys think? Your geometric artwork there is excellent, [[User:Arcanedreamer|Arcanedreamer]], I suspect a Steel Rat is much harder. Do you think it's within your scope? There will probably be some reuse-permitted images we could use, so it's entirely up to you! :) -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 14:45, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
! Code !! Output
 
|-
 
| <code><nowiki>{{1st}}</nowiki></code> || {{1st}}
 
|-
 
| <code><nowiki>5{{2nd}}</nowiki></code> || 5{{2nd}}
 
|-
 
| <code><nowiki>-10{{3rd}}</nowiki></code> || -10{{3rd}}
 
|-
 
| <code><nowiki>{{Ordinal|57}}</nowiki></code> || {{Ordinal|57}}
 
|}
 
  
'''NOTE:''' Please do not use these shortcuts in links or template calls. "{{1st}}" is not the same as "1st", and they cannot be interchanged in code, i.e.:
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::::: [[User:Djonni|Djonni]], I hear a mild challenge in there. I shall accept and prove your skepticism wrong! In all seriousness, though, it sounds like a fun way to push at my pixel art boundaries (I've been doing nothing but inanimate objects so far, ehehe....)! Also, two things - should I go ahead and place whatever JanuWiki 2020 art I end up creating in the sandbox? And are there any other art requests? --[[User:Arcanedreamer|Arcanedreamer]] ([[User talk:Arcanedreamer|talk]]) 15:07, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
* The [[1st Line of Defense]] guild article '''cannot''' be linked to with <code><nowiki>[[{{1st}} Line of Defense]]</nowiki></code>.
 
* If you wish to get extra-fancy, you can write:
 
::<code><nowiki>[[1st Line of Defense|{{1st}} Line of Defense]]</nowiki></code>
 
: which produces: [[1st Line of Defense|{{Ordinal|1}} Line of Defense]].
 
  
Also, be aware that unlike Wikipedia's Ordinal, ours only does superscripts. They're always enabled. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 06:10, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
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It looks like from [[Djonni/Shared sandbox]] that there is already quite the amount of articles found within both them (good work finding them by the way). So now, what? Do we use the forum to see if there is people interested in a potential event before throwing anything and thinking of the form JanuWiki 2020 could take? --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 13:58, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
  
:: I've put this neat little template [[Djonni#Vitalstatistix|to use]] in my page's infobox! Very nice :) --[[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 08:54, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
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:Sorry guys, been a busy week at work! [[User:Arcanedreamer|Arcanedreamer]], your [[:File:SteelRat.png|Steel Rat]] is great! I'm very impressed! :D
  
== First two mobile-friendly infoboxes are live! (Please test!!) ==
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:Yeah, [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]], if you guys are happy with the lists at [[Djonni/Shared sandbox]] then we should probably take it to the forum. I'll create a dedicated talk topic for JanuWiki 2020 ideas and planning, so that folks don't feel like they need to wade through months of discussion above to get up to speed. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 15:48, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
  
Everyone, the first mobile-friendly Infobox (see [[Talk:Main Page/Archive#Formatting Infoboxes in the mobile view|"Formatting Infoboxes in the mobile view"]]) is now live. All [[:Category:Pets|Pets]] articles that use a [[Template:Pet]] infobox (that would be [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Pet&hidelinks=1 all of these]) will now have an infobox that will adapt to your screen size when viewing the page.
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::Well, I just posted an ''offensively'' long message on the forums ({{cite forum|308|1274998}}) so if anyone's masochistic enough to actually read it, welcome to the conversation! 😅 -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 17:38, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
  
: '''Update:''' As of 23 July 2018 02:45 (UTC), [[Template:Town]] is also upgraded with the mobile-friendly layout , so on any page that uses {{tl|Town}} the infobox should adapt to the screen size automatically. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 02:50, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
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:::Bold of you to assume that I would think reading a long forum post is a masochistic action. In all seriousness, I think you did a good job doing an early advertisement for the event! Hopefully it'll attract old and new participants alike~! --[[User:Arcanedreamer|Arcanedreamer]] ([[User talk:Arcanedreamer|talk]]) 23:47, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
  
I'd like to ask as many users as possible, if they have a chance, to look at as many Pet articles as they can, and on as many types of devices as we can get sampling from. Whether it's a tablet device, any model iPhone or Android phone, heck even an old Palm Pre or whatever. And if you just want to check it out but don't have access to any of those, you can use the Mobile view link at the bottom of any page in the Godwiki to switch into the mobile skin from your desktop browser. In fact, that can be some of the best testing, because then you can change the window size and see how the page responds.
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::::So, with the new [[Book of Creation]] update, should we consider a chance in focus to all things related to '''words''', '''books''', and '''writing'''? -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 16:53, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
  
What you ''should'' see, if there are no problems, are:
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:::::Maybe? I mean, on one hand, I think we're fine with the themes we already have - look at how many articles that are already available! On the other hand, people tend to be a lot more hyped up for new things, so there's a pretty good chance that more people would be interested. In the end, I guess it just depends on how big you're expecting this next JanuWiki is gonna be. --[[User:Arcanedreamer|Arcanedreamer]] ([[User talk:Arcanedreamer|talk]]) 02:33, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
# Right off the bat, the infobox is cleaner in ways you probably won't notice, but trust me, it's there. While I was updating the code I corrected a lot of structural errors that were causing lots of extra table rows, double borders, etc. All of that should be gone.
 
# '''Other than''' that, in the desktop browser view there should be no visible difference whatsoever.
 
# In the mobile view, what you should see is a page that keeps the normal formatting with the infobox on the right and text flowing to its left, ''unless'' the window/screen becomes too narrow, in which case the infobox will center itself on the page and push the text down below it. This should happen pretty seamlessly in a web browser (in mobile view) as you narrow the window.
 
# On a phone, most likely the page will start out with the centered, no-text-alongside infobox, as it's meant to.
 
  
Please report any issues you see, either here or on my [[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk page]]. I'd like to get the rest of the infoboxes updated next week, if there are no concerns about the Pet articles. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 02:54, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
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{{outdent|:::::}}I've done a rapid survey of book and word themed items at [[Djonni/Shared sandbox#Books and words]]. The main takeaway from that is that there's essentially no monsters (the most popular creator category by far) and a huuuge list of artifacts that don't offer the same variety and breadth that the other categories do.
: I just fixed a couple of issues with the {{tl|Pet}} infobox sizing on mobile, one that blew out the frame too wide on narrower devices, the other that made the box too _narrow_ on wider screens (like tablets). -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 10:20, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 
:: I checked on your update to the pet template, and on my iPhone 5S, the box is blown out to the left. It does look a lot better, minus the shift to the left -- [[User:Holy Spirit of Hell|Holy Spirit of Hell]] ([[User talk:Holy Spirit of Hell|talk]]) 01:08, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
 
::: Hmm, thanks. I'll take a look. Not immediately showing up on my phone, but I'll poke around with the mobile browser skin, and some device simulators if need be. Did you happen to notice if it was the same on every pet page (or, if you looked at more than one, all of those)? -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 03:29, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
 
::: Sorry, H.S.H., I can't seem to replicate. I tested the site in Safari on an emulated iPhone 5 and an emulated iPad Air, ''as well as'' in '''both''' Safari and Firefox on a ''real'' iPhone 6S (thank you, BrowserStack free trial!), and in every case the infoboxes looked as expected in both device orientations.
 
::: I captured a screenshot of the [[Terror Bull]] article on every one of those platforms/browsers I mentioned, in both orientations. There's a gallery post showing all of them here: https://imgur.com/a/P6qMfGO — can you take a look and let me know if anything there fails to match what you're seeing on your 5S? -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 04:28, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
 
::: In re-reading your comment, H.S.H, I realized I should maybe define "blown out" as I used it to describe the old infoboxes. The issue with the existing Infobox templates (the ones I haven't updated) is that the wiki mobile skin forces them to 100% width on any smaller-width screens. That can cause the columns of the infobox to become stretched wider than intended in ugly, weird ways. For example, here's the [[Bully Mammoth]] article on my Galaxy S6, in landscape orientation: https://imgur.com/a/WEA4uea . You can see that there's a large box to the right of the infobox, because the table that contains it is forced to be the entire width of the screen.
 
::: With the new infobox changes, that won't happen. (or, it's not supposed to, unless there's a bug in my changes.) Instead, what's ''supposed'' to happen is that the box will keep its specified width and just center itself on the page. If you're seeing boxes '''shifted''' to the left, but not distorted (improperly sized)... well, I'm not sure what's going on there, since as I said in my previous post I wasn't able to reproduce it in Safari or Firefox on BrowserStack's emulator farm. But, since I wasn't running the Godville app on iOS, it's possible that browser is slightly different. Still, if you can give me more details on the issue you were seeing, I'll try to look into it further. Thanks. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 06:15, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
 
:::: It's now been a week since Holy Spirit of Hell's report of iPhone issues with the new infoboxes, and still no word back. H.S.H. doesn't appear to have been around the wiki much in that time, though... I guess I'll wait to the end of the week, and then decide how to proceed if I still haven't heard anything. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 01:30, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
 
  
::: <span id=Djonni_20180802>{{god|Holy Spirit of Hell}}</span>, when you say "on iPhone", are you using the Godville app's built-in browser for viewing the wiki? And, if yes, have you told the built-in browser you want the "desktop" view?
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It might still be nice for us to do ''something'' about books and words with the [[Book of Creation]] update, but I think making it a part of JanuWiki isn't going to create a lot of excitement.
::: I ask because, for unfathomable reasons, the app's built-in browser's 'desktop' view uses totally unique CSS that is '''''just awful''''' and breaks a lot of basic Wiki formatting. What you describe sounds like standard SNAFU behaviour in that use case. --[[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 08:51, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
 
  
: Apologies for (re)joining the conversation on this late, I've been organising a move to a different hemisphere and it's taken more cognitive budget than I had available on a daily basis. While I'm not finished, I've passed enough milestones that my brain has a little more space again!
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And to answer that question, {{u|Arcanedreamer}}, I am anticipating that this JanuWiki will be a little smaller than the last one. But we won't know until we see for ourselves. :) -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 06:49, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
:Taking a look at the Pets and Towns infoboxes live across a sampling of pages they look good so far on a 6" device (Chrome on Android) and a 5" device (Chrome on Android). All my other mobile devices are packed into storage, sadly!
 
:I'd say it's ready to be rolled out further, pending HSH adding further information above! --[[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 08:51, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
 
:: Well, no word back from Holy Spirit of Hell after a week and a half. I left a talk page message (only just now), hoping that might get their attention, but I'm inclined to go ahead with this as-is. I'll convert the rest of the infoboxes when time permits, and if we do hear anything back I'll look into it. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 02:15, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
 
::: Done, [[Talk:Main_Page#Remaining_Infoboxes_updated_with_mobile-friendly_code|see below]]. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 11:19, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 
{{outdent|::::}} Over on Holy Spirit of Hell's [[User talk:Holy Spirit of Hell|talk page]], H.S.H provided [https://imgur.com/kPAbuA9 this screenshot] of the [[Terror Bull]] rendering, which is definitely not how it's supposed to look. Still investigating. I've requested a survey of how various other Infobox configurations render on the same device, now that they're all upgraded with the new code, so I can hopefully get a handle on exactly what circumstances lead to that glitch. Hopefully that'll get us closer to figuring out the "why", and then we can work out how to prevent it. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 19:50, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 
  
: <span id="HSH_glitch_explained">'''Ohhhhhhhh''', I see what's happening!</span>
+
===Decoration Questions and Art Requests===
 +
Alrighty, so I noticed that the navboxes for the past GodWiki vents tend to have a neat little picture instead of a simple dot separating the different articles. I'm not entirely sure how that works - is there a way to place our own pics (I.E. some specialized JanuWiki pixel art icons) in there, or are we limited to a preset group of images? I was about to start working on a few icon designs before realizing that I didn't know if we're able to even use them. --[[User:Arcanedreamer|Arcanedreamer]] ([[User talk:Arcanedreamer|talk]]) 05:10, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
  
: The rendering that H.S.H screenshot only occurs if you view the wiki using the ''desktop skin'' on a phone-sized mobile device, which isn't really wide enough to render that skin properly. If you view the pages using the mobile skin, they look fine.
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:Well when I made {{tlx|navbox items}} I built in quite a bit of flexibility for exactly this kind of reason! :) Using the {{para|bullet}} parameter, you can set the separator between list items to anything you want. We usually use emoji characters for this, which has benefits and drawbacks, but there's no reason why we can't use an image!
 +
:The image that we use in the {{tlx|god}} template for this: {{god|Arcanedreamer}} is rendered as 17x17 pixels, making it just a little taller than the line on most screens. In the wiki software used to run the GodWiki, there's no way to make the size of an image dynamic in any way, so we will have to decide on pixel dimensions to use (and the wiki doesn't have support for any vector image types either, so a small bullet-sized image won't stretch or shrink well on a lot of screens).
 +
:If you think you can come up with some cool tiny bullet images for navbox use, I think that would be great! We can do a bit of experimenting and see how well it works. I'll leave choices about size up to you, but it might be wise to aim for something that's around 12x12 to 8x8, and using transparency if you don't want it to be a square block :)
 +
:To test out how it looks in a navbox list, use this:
  
: One complication seems to be, if you switch to the desktop view in the Godville app mobile browser, it doesn't look like there's '''any way''' to get back to the mobile skin! The links that would normally be shown at the bottom of the page aren't there. However, this link should return the browser to the mobile skin: [http://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&mobileaction=toggle_view_mobile Switch to Mobile Skin].
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:<code><nowiki>{{navbox items|bullet=[[File:</nowiki><var>Filename.ext</var><nowiki>]]|List item one|List item two|List item three}}</nowiki></code>
  
: I'm not sure how to prioritize solving the rendering issue with desktop-skin-on-mobile. My initial inclination is to not really worry about it (and instead focus on getting people switched back to the mobile skin). -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 20:11, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
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:Which should give you something like this:
:: The issue, in a nutshell, is that the Godwiki can be rendered in one of '''three''' skins:
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:{{navbox items|bullet=[[File:Godicon.png|12x12px]]|List item one|List item two|List item three}}
::* The standard desktop-browser skin, Vector
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:If you want to play with different render sizes, you can put <code>|12x12px</code> or <code>|10x10px</code> etc in the image options like <code><nowiki>[[File:...|12x12px]]</nowiki></code>. :) -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 06:31, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
::* The mobile skin, Minerva
 
::* The desktop-site-requested-on-a-mobile-device skin, WPTouch
 
:: Without access to edit the site/skin CSS itself, it's generally possible to optimize for one or, at most, ''two'' of those, at the risk of causing issues in the third. Which is what we're seeing here. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 20:52, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 
  
::: This is what I was trying (without much success) to refer to [[#Djonni_20180802|above]]. That ''switch to mobile skin'' link you found/crafted {{god|FeRDNYC}} is '''pure gold''', I and many others have had to delete and reinstall the app to fix that! That deserves its own (pinned) Talk topic here on this page, honestly. That skin (WPTouch) causes lots of layout and formatting problems, all over the place. Hitting ''switch to desktop'' on the GodWiki in the GV app's built-in browser effectively breaks the wiki, with no (until now!) way to switch back. --[[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 02:21, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
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== File namespace pass (pass to mark images for deletion) ==
 +
Shortly, I will be going through the file namespace (specifically the items listed on [[Special:UnusedFiles]]) and mass marking files for deletion.
  
== New [[Template:Equipment]] ==
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According to [[Rules]]:
 +
{{tqb|4. GodWiki is not an image-hosting platform, and images should never be uploaded "in case they're useful" or "to be used at some point" but only for immediate use in an article. Images which are not used in articles may be deleted without notice.|source=[[Rules]]}}
  
I admit, it's not ''super'' necessary, but it just felt weird that we didn't have a [[Template:Equipment]] to go with all of the other infoboxes. So, now we do. It's very simplistic, but with 117 articles in [[:Category:Equipment]] it felt right to start standardizing them. I'll probably try to go through and apply the template to those 117 articles starting next week.
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I interpret this to mean that anything in the [[Special:UnusedFiles]] report can be safely marked for deletion under the {{tqi|Images which are not used in articles may be deleted without notice.|q=yes}} sentence. However, the keyword there is '''''may'''''. That means that images won't necessarily be deleted just for not being on a page. I've been trying to think of scenarios where images would be kept vs deleted (since ''some'' of the images in [[Special:UnusedFiles]] might be worth keeping).
  
Three items of note:
+
So far, I've come up with these scenarios:
# This template is unique among the infoboxes in that it uses a generic image, if one is not supplied in the template call. (You can see the image on the template page.) However, it's definitely preferable to supply a specific image to override the generic one.
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* Images with watermarks (eg: [[:File:Greyscale.jpg]])
# I included the "Durability" stat that I noticed was already listed on ''many'' existing Equipment articles, even though TBH I'm not really sure that actually means anything. (Meaning, I suspect that equipment items can be found at any durability level. But, I could be wrong!)  
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* Images not related to the game at all (excluding images of heroes/gods) (perhaps: [[:File:104866108.jpg]])
# This template uses the [[Talk:Main Page#First two mobile-friendly infoboxes are live.21 .28Please test.21.21.29|new infobox code for mobile browsers]].
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* Images related to the game but do not have an article created (eg: [[:File:Feralpetrock.jpg]])
As always, please report issues, either here or at [[Template talk:Equipment]]. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 01:15, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
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* Images related to the game but not included on any page (eg: [[:File:Undead garden gnome.jpg]])
 +
* Images of diary entries and other in-games screens (which otherwise have no purpose since the diary and diaryquest templates exist, eg: [[:File:Dust Kitty.png]])
 +
* Images of formulas that are not listed on any page (eg: [[:File:Fo3.gif]])
 +
** If necessary, I can go through and try to determine what these formulas are (eg: the linked one above is probably a formula to estimate temple completion)
 +
* Images with no discernible purpose or description (eg: [[:File:Founder.jpg]])
 +
* Images that appear to be duplicates of other images (eg: [[:File:Beer-bottle-tree.jpg]] and [[:File:Beer-bottle-tree1.jpg]])
 +
** If they're perfectly identical, I can just mark one of them for deletion
 +
** If they're different sizes, I can mark the smaller one for deletion
  
:The absence of an equipment infobox template has occured to me as odd more than once, and I ''love'' the default image (both in principle and in the specific choice). I feel like a default image is worth considering for other infoboxes, it's a quick way to add a little polish to stubs. Perhaps the default image field might include a caption with a link to upload a {{tl|PAGENAME}}.jpg...? We've discussed #ifexists being expensive before, and it's probably unwise to include them in template defaults, but it sure would be elegant if a template found an existing PAGENAME.jpg file. Just brainstorming :) --[[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 01:58, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
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Unfortunately, I can't detect if an image ''used'' to be on any pages by nature of MediaWiki. (I was thinking about exporting the diffs of each page and searching them for <code><nowiki>[[Image:xxx]]]</nowiki></code> or <code><nowiki>[[File:xxx]]</nowiki></code>. But I don't want to do that because that would put a lot of strain on the database/website [probably], and I don't want to be responsible for if anything happens.)
  
:: I'd be reluctant to do that (the <code>{{{PAGENAME}}}.jpg</code> thing) for two reasons. No, three. None of which have anything to do with the code performance.
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I'll be considering the nature of the images (as listed in the scenarios above), as well as the age of the image, who uploaded it (mainly to see if {{u|Spode}} or a few others uploaded it. {{u|Spode}} created a bunch of templates and other things that have since been marked for deletion (Usually Spode was the one to mark his templates as such))
::# The images might not be JPGs. They might be .PNG files, or GIFs.
 
::# It's preferable to let people use their own filenames for uploads.
 
::# The previous is '''especially''' true when ''replacing'' images.
 
  
:: Say someone uploads a <code>Terror Bull.jpg</code> image. That image may be used somewhere in some '''other''' article. Now, if someone wants to replace the image in the [[Terror Bull]] infobox, the way to do it would be to upload a new image (with a unique filename), and update the template call. If they're given the impression the image "should be" named <code>Terror Bull.jpg</code>, and they upload their new image to ''overwrite'' the old one, then it gets changed everywhere, which may not be desirable to anyone who's used that image elsewhere.
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Worst case, you'll be able to see which ones I have marked for deletion in [[:Category:Marked for deletion]] and on my dummy page ([[User talk:Emptysora/dummy]]) when I add them there (which will be as I go along, but I'll save after every couple hundred or so). If you feel a file shouldn't be on there, feel free to discuss it here or on the file's talk page.
  
:: I think we could have generic, "default" images for the other infoboxes, but they should be just that: A generic image that's used '''unless''' an image filename is specified. Typing a filename into the template call isn't particularly onerous. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 02:38, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
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The main reason I have been going through the [[Special:UnusedTemplates]], [[Special:UnusedFiles]], and [[Special:UnusedCategories]] special pages is so that we can actually use those reports as intended. Ie: I'm adding everything that has been marked for deletion to my dummy page such that they're removed from those reports. The page is in ''User talk'' because the ''User'' namespace is semi-protected (but ''User talk'' isn't). IE: If I go off for a month and things are unnominated or the devs actually clear the category out, you'll be able to modify the page to remove the deleted pages from the Special:Wanted reports.
  
:::Mmm, you make good points there, particularly about replacing images. Perhaps just something like <code><nowiki><small>[[Special:Upload|Upload]] an image.</small></nowiki></code> would be enough. And a <code><nowiki>[[Category:Pictures needed]]</nowiki></code> might be clever, come to think of it? --[[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 08:47, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
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Before I start "pruning" (mass-marking these images for deletion), I wanted to hear some opinions about this. To be safe, if there's anything I'm not sure about, I'll post a reply to this thread asking for more opinions on a case-by-case basis. To start out, I've listed the example images from above. -- [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 21:08, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
  
:::: I think showing an upload link makes sense — good idea. Right now {{tl|Picture}} only shows a page-edit link, which is only useful if you've already uploaded the file. Guiding people to [[Special:Upload]] as the first step in adding photos is probably more useful.
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: I don't think there is something wrong about marking any unused pictures with "To delete". That whats the Recommandation #4 say that happens to those pictures anyway, we can still upload new pictures when needed....  The problem remains the same, we can't delete them ourselves. I don't know if that's something easy to do/useful from dev POV though. -- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 22:41, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
  
:::: In fact, it ''might'' be possible to auto-template the page as {{tl|Picture}}-needed if the default image is used. (Or just whenever the <code>|image=</code> parameter is missing, even in infoboxes that don't have a default image.) Whether or not that will '''actually''' work depends on whether the Godwiki css includes some form of the same classes that Wikipedia uses for message boxes, that forces them to the top of the page no matter where they're placed in the article source. Which, come to think of it, I bet it doesn't. ...Still, I can just stick the {{tl|Picture}} template '''before''' the infobox code, and it should end up in the right place.
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:: What I was thinking about is if we could perhaps every so often submit an "Other" report to the devs via feedback and ask them to clear out [[:Category:Marked for deletion]]. (Eg: maybe once a year). From a dev perspective, I don't think there's an easy way to batch the deletion. At least not without installing extensions such as [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:DeleteBatch DeleteBatch] or [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Nuke Nuke]. The only thing I can think of is if we made a template that would link to the confirmed delete action and create a page where all they had to do was to click links to delete the pages. That poses an issue of, say, if a malicious actor modified the page before the admins get to it (not that our special category doesn't have that risk either). Aside from that, the devs would have to go into each page, drop down the "More" menu, and click the "Delete" option that's listed for them.
  
:::: I'll take a swing at adding that (along with a parameter to override it, I guess, just for peace of mind) to some of the infoboxes, starting with {{tl|Equipment}}. And also have them do auto-categorization into a sub-[[:Category:Infobox picture needed]] on the same criteria. (Although {{tl|Picture}} will auto-categorize the page into the general [[:Category:Pictures needed]], so maybe both is overkill.) This way, the modifications to the add-an-image flow (pointing to [[Special:Upload]] before / instead-of the edit link) can be made in the {{tl|Picture}} box instead, and they'll benefit all pages it's used on. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 10:55, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
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:: I just think that just because we ''can't'' delete pages doesn't mean we ''shouldn't be looking to'' (hence why I'm doing this). -- [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 23:03, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
  
{{outdent|::::}} Yesss, putting {{tl|picture}} at the head of the infobox is a ''very'' clever approach. And I don't hate having a special category for infobox pictures, I think that's a good category to have available when one's looking for some quick improvements to make. I personally would say that an infobox without a picture rises to a higher priority than a general stub without a picture, I don't think having it categorised both ways is overkill.
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::: Passed through the list and whittled it down to 317 (when it used to be at 1200~). Gonna apologize now since that action probably will make people's lives miserable when they check [[Special:RecentChanges]]. Tip: Set "namespace" to "File" and check the "Invert selection" box (which might not work on mobile) to hide my recent File edits (which is over 800). I'll do some more tomorrow. -- [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 02:10, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
  
This is one of those times that having already updated the Guidebook would be helpful &mdash; {{tl|picture}} ''could'' point to an upload-and-edit guide. Maybe it's worth touching that specific part of the guidebook up immediately. {{m|notnow}} (TODO) --[[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 05:35, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
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:::: Nobody's been willing to go through this so thoroughly in ''ever'', {{u|Emptysora}}, so 👏👏👏 well done! I have a small suggestion as to how to best use all this work of yours. I think it's worth trying to turn this into a genuine cleanup, and make it as easy as possible for the Devs to do that big batch delete. I've always had a concern that there's quite a lot of material in those old pictures that is copyrighted or lacks suitable licensing, and shouldn't be here.
  
:It's good ''enough'', I think, to have {{tl|picture}} point into [[Creators_Manual#Images]] without rewriting. Notwithstanding that it could be improved there. --[[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 05:57, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
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:::: We could, if we want to be generous, post a message on the forum about this and give fokls a grace period to come and rescue anything they wanted kept. I also think it's wise to exclude anything which is a screenshot of the game, as there are lots of genuine reasons why someone may have one of those uploaded without being in use on a page (and, since they're material from the game, they pose no threat of copyright or licencing violations at all). But, assuming those two things are done, I think that it's worth you submitting an Ideabox->Other to the Devs asking them to do a batch delete (with links to those extensions, as they might find that useful).
  
:: For the ''general'' case of "this article needs pictures", agreed, but actually for the Infobox case specifically it's kind of overkill, because they don't actually need to worry about '''any''' of that. To add an image to an infobox all you do is upload the file and enter the filename, you're spared having to worry about the intricacies of <code><nowiki>[[Image]]</nowiki></code> linking.  
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:::: To make it as easy as possible for that deletion to go ahead, I can modify {{tl|delete}} so that it checks if it's on an image page (i.e., in the <code>File:</code> namespace), and adds those images to a new <nowiki>[[Category:Files marked for deletion]]</nowiki>, which will make not just this batch deletion easier, but future image cleanups as well. We will then in future simply be able to drop a {{tlf|delete}} onto images as needed, and once there's enough to make it worth the trouble, pop a fresh request through to the Devs.
  
:: (And even when it comes to the syntax, if only the explanation at the top of [[Special:Upload]] actually demonstrated <code><nowiki>[[Image]]</nowiki></code> syntax instead of <code><nowiki>[[File]]</nowiki></code> and <code><nowiki>[[Media]]</nowiki></code>, I might say it's as good as the one in the Creators Manual.) But, regardless, because infobox image-adding is even simpler, maybe we should have a special version of / path through {{tl|Picture}}, where we just instruct them to upload a file and paste the filename into the template as an <code>|&nbsp;image=</code> parameter, rather than dumping all the rest of that noise on them? -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 10:08, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
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:::: I suspect they will actually be glad for the opportunity to clear all that old junk out, especially if we point out that there's copyrighted and unlicensed material sprinkled through it. For most of the Godwiki's history, image licensing issues have never been adequately emphasised, but I really think it needs to be something we're much more assiduous about, and this big image cleanup will really help with that. 👏 again! -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 11:02, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
  
::: Limited on time right now, but wanted to say: 1) Yes, actually, that makes sense (not to point editors to the Creator's Manual just to add an infobox image). Perhaps a short, sweet <code><nowiki> ===Adding an image to the template=== </nowiki></code> should be in each <code><nowiki>Template:XX/documentation</nowiki></code> page, with a link in the default image table cell (e.g., <code><nowiki><small>[[Special:Upload|Upload]] an image and [[Template:XX/documentation#Adding_an_image_to_the_template|put it here]].</small></nowiki></code>)? --[[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 02:34, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
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{{outdent|:::::}}
 +
The only screenshots of the game I propose to mark for deletion unquestionably is things like screenshots of the diary, pantheon rankings, and hero stats screens. The rules state this isn’t a hosting website, and generally, those kinds of images are mostly uploaded to share “hey, this happened” or “I’m number one on the Destruction pantheon” or “I’m rich.” So, those ones should be almost certainly deleted. Things like inventory screens etc. I can see keeping. There was one I caught after the fact but forgot to remove the template that showed some holiday exclusive items. There’s also what appears to be dungeon maps and strategies/guides (I assume that’s what that is, I’m 92 bricks until I can see that mechanic.)
  
::: Oh yeah, and point 2) I will (I ''will'' I ''will'') start adding {{tl|equipment}} to existing pages, aaaany day now. --[[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 02:35, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
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I also agree that a warning (especially if this is a regular thing from now on) on the forums is important. I forgot to suggest that in my OP (despite alluding to it). If people on the site have a desire to keep their images, they’ll check. It allows us to prune the inactive images and old content. If you do put a message on the forums, you should specify that they should add their images to their user page or something so they aren’t marked for deletion. If they want to hide it there, you can tell them the 1x1 trick we thought of on your page.
  
:::: [[Mace of amnesia|Tadah!]] --[[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 08:03, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
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I hope the moderators don’t have to go through a lot of trouble to batch it.
::::: And [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Equipment&hidelinks=1 already up to 9 pages] now, woo! 🤩 I shall honor your diligence by being lazy and continuing to not do any of those myself. 😏 You're Welcome™! (But maybe I'll get to that {{tl|Picture}} stuff we discussed... after I sort out those last issues with the new Main Page.) -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 08:12, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
 
:::::: Hey... hold off, if you can, before doing any more of these. [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/Talk:Djonni#Template:Equipment_subcategorization I just had an idea]. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 13:08, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
 
::::::: Never mind, idea implemented! -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 16:12, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
 
:::::::: Also, BTW, I didn't realize I'd broken the parameter check so that you couldn't include a blank <code>image</code> parameter without breaking the default image, but I've fixed that now. So, feel free to make an empty <code>| image =</code> part of your boilerplate, it'll work fine! -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 16:14, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
 
  
{{outdent|::::::::}} {{m|done}} The auto-{{tl|picture}} templating we'd discussed is now in place on {{tl|Equipment}}. For the moment it just uses the standard [[Template:Picture]], that can be adjusted later on if we develop any specific new flows. I've already taken the liberty of removing the manual (now-redundant) {{tl|picture}} transclusions from the Equipment articles where you'd already added it (there were only a couple). -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 04:11, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
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Eventually, I’ll be going through the entire File list for inappropriate images, copyrighted content, etc. and marking those accordingly. That’s... another day though.
  
: The automatic {{tl|picture}}ing looks better than I feared, looks seamless. If I notice any funny edge cases or anything as it gets rolled out I'll bring it to your attention but I can't imagine what. 👌 --[[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 17:42, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
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Personally, and as heartless as this is, nobody has the right to complain if their image is removed since GV doesn’t ever guarantee it’ll stay, has provisions for removing images, and states it’s not a hosting platform. They can, however, get mad at ''us'' for marking it to be deleted (Especially me since I just went through and added 800 to the category).
  
== Remaining Infoboxes updated with mobile-friendly code ==
+
Well, I guess I’ll call this '''''{{tqi|Project Cleanup 2019}}''''' I guess, if this is going to become a full cleanup operation. I’m only one person, so, I could use all the help I can get anyway. Honestly, I had planned to do a cleanup of all three for this reason. No offense to anyone, but there’s a lot of old “junk” left around. It bugs me when I see stuff like that (especially with the unused reports), so... you know (;一_一)
  
I've just finished updating the {{tl|Monster}}, {{tl|Artifact}}, {{tl|Beastie}}, and {{tl|Guild}} Infobox templates with the same mobile-friendly code that was already in place on {{tl|Town}}, {{tl|Pet}}, and (the so-far-unused) {{tl|Equipment}}. That covers every article-space infobox in the system, the only remaining ones are {{tl|Hero}} and {{tl|Usergod}}/{{tl|Usergoddess}}, which I may get to at some point in the future, but they're lower priority.
+
Lastly, the image licensing we definitely need to pay attention to. I hate copyright law enough to know that some people and companies CAN and WILL take action against people for this stuff '''**cough cough** RIAA/MPAA **cough cough**''' (though those two are music and video, and our at risk files are mostly anime images)
  
Along the way, I cleaned up the code in all of them, to varying degrees (dependent on how bad the existing code was). And, some specific items of note:
+
Glad to help with all of this, though. [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 11:41, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
* '''For {{tl|Artifact}}:'''
 
:: I fixed the auto-categorization for the specialty categories ([[:Category:Bold Artifacts]], [[:Category:Healing Artifacts]], [[:Category:Activatable Artifacts]]), which was completely broken as it was dependent on nonexistent parameters.
 
:: It now works off the <code>|type=</code> parameter, case-insensitively and ignoring whitespace, as follows:
 
::* If <code>|type = Bold</code>, place in [[:Category:Bold Artifacts]]
 
::* If <code>|type = Healing</code>, place in [[:Category:Healing Artifacts]]
 
::* If <code>|type = Activatable</code>, place in [[:Category:Activatable Artifacts]]
 
:: Also, <code>| monster = <i>something</i></code> will cause the article to be placed in [[:Category:Monsters' Artifacts]]. (This is in addition to always placing the article in [[:Category:Artifacts]].)
 
  
:: This means that it should no longer be necessary to manually place Categories in Artifact articles ''at all'' (if they are using {{tl|Artifact}}), and when editing an article that uses the template it is preferable to '''remove''' redundant manual categories. This is so that, if there is a mistake in the template data that changes the category when corrected, there will be no conflict between the categories exported by the template and the categories placed in the article.
+
:I'm going to gently but '''''quite firmly''''' argue again that material that's clearly ''directly'' related to Godville &mdash; screenshots, etc &mdash; has an implicit but clear reason to be here, regardless of whether it appears on [[Special:UnusedFiles]]. There are plenty of places around the wiki ([[Hall of records]] spring to mind) where a large number of players with zero experience (or interest) in wikis and how they work have simply made trial-and-error guesses about how to do stuff, and come up with some ''creative'' solutions that will mean files that are, in fact, in use will ''erroneously'' appear on that report. And that's not even to mention when people upload an image to the Godwiki to be linked from the forums, or in a private message, or in the discord(s), which does happen, and which is, in my opinion, a totally reasonable thing for a player to do. Because, in fact, why ''shouldn't'' people use the Godwiki as a place to put {{tqi|those kinds of images... uploaded to share “hey, this happened” or “I’m number one on the Destruction pantheon” or “I’m rich”}}? Proudly displaying your achievements as a God or a Guild is one of the Godwiki's most-used purposes.
* '''For {{tl|Guild}}:'''
 
:: This template got the biggest changes of all. In addition to '''''massive''''' code cleanup (it was a MESS)...
 
::* I completely re-wrote the processing of the multiple <code>|founder=</code> (plus <code>|founder2=</code>...<code>|founder5=</code>) parameters, to create a bulleted list of all the provided founders.
 
::* I re-wrote both the <code>|friend1=</code>...<code>|friend8=</code> and <code>|foe1=</code>...<code>|foe5=</code> processing, so that both Allies and Rivals are displayed as a bulleted list taking up a ''single'' cell, instead of one-row-per-entry like the previous code.
 
::* I increased the infobox width to <code>25em</code>. I felt that was a better fit with the new bulleted Founder(s) list, as it tends to be wider.
 
::* <code>|position=left</code> is no longer available for this template, due to the mobile-friendly code change. That's true of all the infobox templates, post-change, but this template seems to be the one where <code>position=</code> was most used. Any guild pages designed around left-aligned {{tl|Guild}} infoboxes will need to be redesigned to accommodate the right-aligned infobox. I apologize for the inconvenience, but I'm afraid it's a necessary tradeoff to get proper formatting on mobile screens.
 
  
If any of my changes tonight are going to be problematic for people, it's likely the changes to {{tl|Guild}}, either technically (there might be bugs) or philosophically (you might object to the decisions I made). In either case, please bring up the issues here and we'll come to a resolution. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 11:18, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
+
:Granted that the Godwiki isn't an {{tqi|image-hosting platform}}<sup>1</sup>, but if you're a Godville player, you have a totally reasonable expectation that it's a place you could safely put game-related material, regardless of whether you have '''1)''' ever seen those guidelines or even realise that they exist (most don't), and '''2)''' have the slightest idea how wikis work. And both of those are things we can continue to expect from the majority of occasional Godwiki contributors forever, as there's really nothing we could (or should) do about it if we want people to feel like they can use the Godwiki freely.
  
== [[Template:Navboxboss-monsters]] renamed to [[Template:Navboxbosses]] ==
+
:There's a reason why [[Special:UnusedFiles]] is separate to the marked-for-deletion categories. Any mediawiki installation would have use cases for images to be present that should not be deleted, and this is definitely one of them for us. Regardless of whether we ''like'' having things on that report, it is, nonetheless, ''simply'' a report, and doesn't always require action to be taken to [[wikipedia:WP:BROKE|"fix"]] it. 😊
  
The name {{tl|Navboxboss-monsters}} just struck me as long and awkward to type, so I've renamed the template to {{tl|Navboxbosses}}. The old name is now a redirect, so existing calls will still work and you can continue to use the old, longer name if you prefer. -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 09:22, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
+
:Of course, I realise that this might mean that someone has to go through every file that's been marked for deletion and un-mark anything that is clearly game related, and I don't mind doing that work in the next while. 😊
  
== New mobile-friendly [[Main Page]] ==
+
:Footnote <sup>1</sup>: That wording actually comes from the ''bad old days'', and in my opinion, we should actually rethink it with the above in mind. Because all mediawikis ''are'' an image-hosting platform, if they have any images at all. The wording is sarcastic, and was put there just to be a stick to hit people with (''ref'': {{tl|Warning}}) if they uploaded something that a certain someone didn't like. The rule is sound in principle, but should reflect a more reasonable, friendlier tone. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 12:09, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
  
The [[Main Page]] of the wiki is using a new layout that should automatically size itself to your screen, even on mobile devices. Please kick the tires, but if we get a flat it's '''''your fault'''''! 😜
+
:: I’ll go through it later, don’t worry.
  
The page will look not-great-at-all in the "Desktop" mode on a mobile browser. That skin is just terrible and nothing will ever look very good in it. However, in the interest of saving people from its awfulness, when you are viewing the site with that skin (only), the bottom of the main page will now include a link to "Switch back to the [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&mobileaction=toggle_view_mobile mobile skin]". -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 05:51, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
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:: My only comment is that I don’t think that just because it’s a screenshot of the game or directly related to the game, that we unconditionally keep the image on the site. All the rules state is that it’s not a hosting platform, things should be for immediate use, and content unrelated can be deleted without warning. Ie: it doesn’t say “Anything related to the game will always stay” (as silly or implicit such a rule would be)
:Right now, the ‘desktop skin’ for mobile is much easier to navigate around, due to the smaller font, the mobile version has a lot of scrolling around. For any further improvement, I’d suggest making the mobile fonts show up smaller if possible —[[User:Holy Spirit of Hell|Holy Spirit of Hell]] ([[User talk:Holy Spirit of Hell|talk]]) 03:52, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
+
 
 +
:: What I’ll do is go through and individually find the applicable images and evaluate based on your comments so far, if they would have a use or would be necessary to keep. I’ll even search the forums (assuming I can actually search for links like that and automate it) and see if any are linked, automatically removing the template etc.. I’ll post here if I have questions.
 +
 
 +
:: I know why Unused is not called pending delete or similar. I never treated it as such (or else there’d be nothing left in that report). In such cases, we could still add them to a page like my dummy page so they don’t show up in the report.
 +
 
 +
:: The problem is that while some of the images MAY be in use despite being on that report, there’s no way for us to tell. We can’t just not delete any files because they ''could'' be used elsewhere. Things directly related to GV I understand. But, with other images, there’s just no way to tell. This is why I think a forum post is a good idea. At least then we gave people a chance to see if their image is pending deletion and potentially remove it.
 +
 
 +
:: Regardless, I think the rules are a bit too vague in this situation. They’re too broadly written. It allows people to interpret them too extremely. I kind of wish we had an admin’s opinion on this. That would certainly clarify some of this. — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 14:57, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::: Sorry if I’m coming off harsh... I’m half asleep and really need to sleep. I **will** go through them later and put the applicable files into a temporary purgatory of sorts.
 +
 
 +
::: Honestly, I’m playing devil’s advocate for the most part (just offering a counterargument). at least this discussion will allow us to not have to fuss about it as much. There’s just too many hidden variables with this.
 +
 
 +
::: From what I read, you feel that if it’s game related, it almost certainly stays (nearly regardless of the image itself), and that some images shouldn’t be deleted just because they aren’t used (that one... is hard to deal with).
 +
 
 +
::: Our main issue is the fact that we have nearly zero categorized images, we don’t know what any of them are for. We should start categorizing images based on where they’re located (into the appropriate existing categories)
 +
 
 +
::: in the very least, once we deal with the unused file report, in the future, we’ll be able to see which files were uploaded to be used on the wiki. This allows us to pretty easily determine what to do with most of the files. The uncategorized files we can, for the most part, assume are used elsewhere off the site (Eg: forums). This can allow us to make a better decision on what to do with those.
 +
 
 +
::: Ideally, the only thing I’d like in that report, is files that are new, or are not on the site for use on the wiki. (Or images that have since been removed with categories)
 +
 
 +
::: We just need to clean up the mess from “the ''bad old days''” as you put it.
 +
 
 +
::: As for rule changes. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with allowing game-related images to be hosted. We should probably word it, “GodWiki is not an image hosting website. Images unrelated to the game, it’s contents, gods, and guilds can be removed without warning. In the event you do not think your image will be in use soon, please put a description with the image when you upload it so others that come after you know what you intended. Any content that breaks TOS can be removed without warning.” (Ie: be specific about what is considered unrelated content, and put a note to uploaders letting them know to describe what they’re uploading if it’s not going to be immediately used.)
 +
 
 +
::: For this first purge, I think the unused guild, god, and content images (Eg: monsters, artifacts) be included too (excluding other content related to the game like screenshots.) we then do a forum post so that people can pull what they want out (Eg: grace period of a month). After this, ideally, we categorize uploads so we know WHAT is on the report (since half the time it isn’t clear.) — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 15:25, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
{{outdent|::::}} Heh, don't worry about it. It happens to <s>the best of us</s> me all the time, I often reread stuff I wrote when tired and wonder why anyone still talks to me, or how they could have possibly understood what I'd hoped to say. 😐
 +
 
 +
And in which spirit, I want to be more clear about what I mean, as I'm not sure we have ended up on the same page. I'm really talking ''very specifically'' about screenshots of the game, or of game material which was generated ''by Godville itself'' in some way. And there is a more general way to talk about this which might draw a clearer picture.
 +
 
 +
To me, it comes down to this: ''why'' do we wish to clear out old images? What's our purpose? It can't '' just'' be to clear the special report pages, or keep things "tidy". In fact, there's ''very little reason why'' one should want to do this, other than general fastidious (which I am in general down with, but not in this case).
 +
 
 +
The most legitimate purpose for clearing out old images is to prevent potential future problems to do with licensing and copyright. Because in the end, at some point, someone had a reason to put every single one of those images up in the Godwiki, and it's not possible for us to know what they were, nor if the pictures are still important to someone. So to remove any image we need to justify the choice. And honestly, the only justification I think is reasonable is a precautionary one against legal threats to Godville.
 +
 
 +
Material generated by the game or by the game's players doesn't pose that threat. There is, I argue, simply no ''justification'' for removing it.
 +
 
 +
Organise it? Absolutely! Find a way to better use it? No question! Find a way to take them off the reports, so those reports become useful again? Great idea! Delete someone else's contribution or achievement just... because we decided to? Nah.
 +
 
 +
What I'm trying to say is that simply not being displayed with <code>[<nowiki />[File:...]]]</code> (the report's metric for "in use") isn't a ''reason'' to delete a file. But it's absolutely a reason to take a look and figure out whether it's safe to keep. And if it's not safe, it should go. If it poses no risk at all, which includes any screenshots or game-created content, we don't have a reason to remove something that someone choose to put here. 😊 That's all I'm trying to say. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 18:29, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
: It's basically a case by case issue. I know I uploaded a screenshot that could be deleted because it have no use now (need to find it back to mark it). I don't think there is any good middle ground since deleting is kinda permanent. And copyright haven't been a major issue here so far thanks whatever (Gosh if would be drama if all copyrighted images were deleted).
 +
: There's also a lot of duplicate (guilty as charged for one...) that could be deleted without much thoughts. I'd tend to say that unused screenshot intended for the hall of records could be deleted, but well I can understand the objection of Djonni.
 +
: But, I'd object that objection by saying that most of the people who posted those unused screenshot are unlikely watching at them or at the Godwiki on a regular basis (far fetched argument I know).
 +
: But I also understand there is no emergency at deleting pictures, unless the devs says otherwise (when i need a pic, i try to search if there is something down there i can use instead of upload, like i did for {{tlx|Geography}}), it would just make it cleaner.
 +
: Categorizing the pictures can be useful I guess, but that's gonna be quite the monumental task. (And I guess we need to define those category firsthand). -- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 23:26, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:: {{u|Djonni}} I ask myself that question everyday... heh. I see what you mean. I’ll definitely add the categorization to my list of things to. I like monumental tasks. For the most part, we can use [[:Category:Gods]], [[:Category:Guilds]] and so on for nearly everything. There’s no real reason to create new categories explicitly for images.
 +
 
 +
:: My reason for deleting files was never to clear out the [[Special:UnusedFiles]] report. That was simply the first place I looked through as those images were not in use (Ie: people wouldn’t care ''as much'' if those were gone through)
 +
 
 +
:: I understood what you meant by the game generated content. Yes, those generally would not cause us legal issues, but, there’s other reasons to delete things than just because of legal issues. As {{u|WardPhoenix}} pointed out, there’s duplicate file issues too. Aside from that, there’s also the potential storage space issue. I’m not sure how the devs are handling that one though, and since they haven’t said anything, it’s likely not a problem yet. We should ask them for their opinion on this at some point, though.
 +
 
 +
:: The general assumption I had when I was going through that report was that “since they were unused, the uploaders either don’t need, or want the images anymore.” (That obviously doesn’t work in the case of forum messages.) If somebody worked hard and contributed by uploading a file, you would at least assume they would want to show that file off. The fact that such images appear on that report defies that very idea. In many cases, people have uploaded replacements to be used instead of their original uploads (such as hero/god avatars, guild banners, especially HM, and some bird one I can’t remember the name of.). I kind of want to hear a scenario where this logic would not hold true for the unused file report (at least for the older images, and ones not of game content itself). I’m not suggesting people don’t care about their achievements, but that, in many cases, that doesn’t apply.
 +
 
 +
:: As {{u|WardPhoenix}} said, there’s no rush to delete the images (and I was thinking at least a couple month grace period for the forum post since not everyone comes on everyday like we seem to).
 +
 
 +
:: Sorry for the “late” reply, I’ve been dealing with some legal things these past few weeks (I alluded to it on my user page Monday). I’ve been a bit busy.
 +
 
 +
:: Ugh, this topic is getting long. REALLY long. For some reason the TOC doesn’t show up on the mobile skin, so scrolling to the “edit” link for this section, is a big hassle. <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Emptysora|contribs]])  Thursday November 21</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
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 +
::: Hey, no problems, real life always comes first here. Everyone's among friends here, you take any time you need. As one of my old mentors here once patiently told me, the Godwiki will always be here. 😊 We all hope you're okay, and if you need anything, we're here.
 +
 
 +
::: {{tqi|As {{u|WardPhoenix}} pointed out, there’s duplicate file issues too}}: Yes, absolutely, there's some common sense actions that can safely be taken to clear out dupes, etc. 👍
 +
 
 +
::: {{tqi|there’s also the potential storage space issue}}: This doesn't concern me at all, for a few reasons. Firstly, it's not our concern. 🤷‍♂️ If the space used by the Mediawiki installation had ever been a concern for the Devs, they could have popped in at any time in the last eight years and nuked every unused file. They haven't. Not on Godwiki-en, nor on Godwiki-ru, which is ''much'' busier and larger than ours. Secondly, a careful inspection of the [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=Special:Log/delete&dir=prev&offset=20130914040147&limit=500&type=delete&user= Godwiki deletion logs] reveals that, even at times where deleting offensive images was necessary (and it's worth noting that that's the ''only'' reason an image has ''ever'' been deleted), they were very selective in deleting only the historical revision of the <code>[[File:</code> that was offensive, and leaving behind the pointless placeholder that was uploaded to obscure the offensive file. They have clearly demonstrated that they strongly prefer for ''all user content to be kept'', even the pointless stuff, unless there's a clear and compelling reason to remove it. Y'see? We don't need to ask the Devs opinion on this stuff, we've got it demonstrated if we just look.
 +
 
 +
::: {{tqi|you would at least assume they would want to show that file off. The fact that such images appear on that report defies that very idea}}: Well, I think I've expressed my disagreement with this enough. 😊 The key word there really is "assume" — we simply shouldn't be assuming what those users wanted, or want, with the file. And we shouldn't assume that a correctly formatted <code>[[File:</code> is the only way the images have been used.
 +
 
 +
::: {{tqi|such as hero/god avatars, guild banners, especially HM, and...}}: I don't believe we ever really disagreed on that. 👍 Unless for some weird reason a guild used a screenshot for their emblem, which 🤷‍♂️ sure, if they did, I'd be arguing for it's preservation.
 +
 
 +
::: On the matter of guilds, though, it's not difficult to imagine a scenario where someone would be angry about this. Take: the newly elected guild leader, keen to revitalise the guild's symbols and wiki page for recruitment, goes looking for all the old emblems and banners for some retro inspiration, or to cherry pick the best to reuse. For the last eight years, there's been no problem doing that. We are about to change the ''de facto'' rules, to bring them more in line with the ''de jure'', in a way that could, and one day certainly will, disrupt and frustrate people. It really is something we need to remember. Indifference to user experience has damages the Godwiki's reputation again and again, year after year, and we really mustn't repeat those mistakes
 +
 
 +
::: Btw, I'm not arguing that we keep all the old guild rubbish files. Just highlighting that the expectations of our fellow users need to be kept in mind at all times. Fair warning on the forums will suffice, for cases like that suggested above. Before we take this to the forums, though, we really need to develop a very clear and ''easy'' way people can rescue any files they want kept.
 +
 
 +
::: Okay, okay, I'm procrastinating because I'm having a bad day. Must. Get. Back. To. Work. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 12:04, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
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===Let's place a header here because duck scrolling===
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{{outdent|::::}} I... forgot to sign my comment... oops.
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Thanks for kind of understanding what I meant when I asked for a scenario. I wasn’t being combative at all (even though it probably looks like that), I just figured, if there WAS a reason, I just want to know, since I can’t think of such a reason. You make a good point about going through for past inspiration. Basically, I just wanted a counterargument to what I argued.
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 +
I think we should change our perspective on this. We’re currently taking a '''“delete first, ask users to save their stuff later”''' kind of thing. Let’s flip it. Instead of that, let’s '''“Save first, and ask people and guilds to go through their uploads to see what they don’t need/want anymore.”''' You’ve already shown that there’s far more scenarios where ''keeping the files is the de facto norm.'' Instead of trying to arbitrarily decide who gets to keep their stuff and who doesn’t, I feel we should instead categorize everything, and ask people to look into their uploads for stuff they don’t want to. The only things we will auto-flag for removal are: 1) copyrighted content (which would likely, and, unfortunately include memes), 2) inappropriate content, 3) and duplicate content (putting a ''redirect'' on the dup’s page to the kept file). User content isn’t a problem in most cases, I’ve noticed that most of the outdated user content is handmade, not from copyrighted material anyway. There’s no pressing reason for us to push this. Space isn’t an issue. Most of the content doesn’t violate copyright, and generally poses no issue. And, as a result, simply ''asking'' for people to go through their uploads, will get the so called “file purge” I have been devising, while not upsetting anyone (hopefully).
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 +
For guilds in particular, I think we should suggest that final authority on whether things like banners be removed be delegated to the original uploader/guild master/majority of the guild (Ie: that they use the guild council and forums to debate whether they need to keep their content on here.)
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 +
I’d say that we should stress that ''most'' of the content is perfectly fine and can stay, but, that, we’re trying to do ''something'' about the vast number of unused files, whether that be just to hear, “yeah, it’s not in use, but we’d like to keep it” or “Oh, that? You can get rid of it.” We all like this game, and most of us definitely want to see this wiki improve (I for one want to live to see the [[Special:WantedPages]] show a single digit red link count), so, if we simply organize this as a sort of “spring cleaning” I have no doubt that the interested parties will at least ''look'' through their stuff.
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 +
I’m going to start going through and categorizing all of the files into their appropriate categories. Files that can be categorized and don’t fit into the above listed auto-flag scenarios will be removed from [[:Category:Marked for deletion]].
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 +
After this is all done, we should write some form of guideline article for uploading files (reminding people to put descriptions, categorize, avoid uploading duplicates, etc.). We could even create templates to be used in the file namespace explicitly, such as a <code><nowiki>{{Quality}}</nowiki></code> template which could say, “The quality of this image does not fit the guidelines for images on this wiki. Reason: (((reason))). If you can provide a better image, please replace this file.” Or similar, (reasons can be, “Image has watermark” “resolution too poor” or similar).
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 +
Your thoughts? — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 19:55, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
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: Created a working demo of the "FileUse" template. It's in my [[User:Emptysora/sandbox|sandbox]]. example:
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: <code><nowiki>{{User:Emptysora/sandbox|no-category=yes|type=hero|god=Emptysora|hero=Sora Amasaki|hero-link=User:Emptysora/Sora Amasaki|hero-gender=female}}</nowiki></code>
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: Produces:
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{{User:Emptysora/sandbox|no-category=yes|type=hero|god=Emptysora|hero=Sora Amasaki|hero-link=User:Emptysora/Sora Amasaki|hero-gender=female}}
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: The template uses the <code><nowiki>{{gender:[username]|ifmale|iffemale|ifneutral}}</nowiki></code> magic word to automatically detect the gender preference from the user's settings to decide whether to call the user "god" "goddess" or "almighty" (gender neutral). This setting is found on [[Special:Preferences]] the section titled "How do you prefer to be described?". I chose this example because it explains all of the fringe usages of the parameters in the template (namely hero-link). The template, as suggested by <code>no-category=yes</code>, by default, automatically categorizes the file into categories (namely: [[:Category:Guilds]] [[:Category:Gods]] [[:Category:Heroes]] and [[:Category:Backstage]]) Feedback and suggestions can be left on my [[User talk:Emptysora/sandbox|sandbox's talk page]].
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: Type currently supports: god, hero, guild, and forum. If you have any other suggestions for file uses, please tell me. I want this template to be as complete as possible from the get-go.
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: -- [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 00:06, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
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 +
:: There is already an existing guideline for the upload file within the [[Creators Manual]], it just needs improvement (I did my best, but obviously I missed some points when I rewrote that whole article).
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 +
:: Categorizing the image is ok, obviously. But as Djonni pointed, is there really a need to mark for delete except for unused obvious dupes and unused copyrighted content?
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 +
::As for your template, as impressive it is technically (great work seriously), I don't see the point apart from polluting the file page (please don't take it bad, I know i kind of say that too blunt) and it feels a little... agressive somehow.
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::In theory, files won't be changed by people, unless by mistake or by vandalism.
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::The former will be worried about the warning and may takes it the bad way, while the later will not care obviously.
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::But as revert is quite easy it's not an issue. Basically, I'd say that changing any file upload by another user falls into [[Rules#2]]. And if the file is deleted, it will be by the Devs, who will never be wrong if they delete a file. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 00:42, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
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::: I don't see how it would pollute the file page. The purpose of the template is to provide information about what the file is, and where it is used. It presents this information in a clear, easy to understand, way. If you click a photo on a monster article and see said file, you obviously understand that the image is an image of a monster. Say you click on the "random image" link on the Main page, without looking at the file name, description provided by the uploader, and the pages linking to the image, it's impossible to tell what the image is. And, in the case of images on [[Special:UnusedFiles]], all you have to go on is the description provided by the uploader (which is, in the vast majority of cases, missing), and the file name. Even if modifying files uploaded by other users falls into [[Rules#2]], if all you do is look at the file page, and have never seen the [[Rules]] page (which is most of the people in this game), you won't know that.
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::: The "Please do not delete or modify this content without permission" message is supposed to just tell the user not to make edits or flag for deletion without contacting the owner/discussing it. That's why it links to the appropriate talk pages. I understand the verbiage sounds aggressive, but verbiage can be changed. We shouldn't ''not'' do something just because the first incarnation of it can be considered aggressive and taken the wrong way. That goes against everything a wiki stands for: collaboration.
 +
 
 +
::: {{tqi|"But as Djonni pointed, is there really a need to mark for delete except for unused obvious dupes and unused copyrighted content?"}}, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. The only things I suggested be marked for deletion is duplicate files, copyrighted content, and content that is against the ToU/ToS of the site. Aside from the last item, that's exactly what I said (when I agreed with him). What I'm suggesting is that we call on users to see if they have any files or whatever they want to get rid of, before we send the request to the devs to do a mass deletion, since there's likely not going to be another opportunity to remove files for a long time. IE: I want to at least give the others a chance to get rid of anything they don't want anymore instead of just not telling them we did this.
 +
 
 +
::: While the "This file is an image." title may seem redundant, it's not because images aren't the only thing that can be uploaded (even if the allowed extensions only permit images). Not to mention, I simply couldn't think of what to put there. I can either remove or edit the message so it's not so useless, which is, again, why I wanted feedback.
 +
 
 +
::: -- [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 01:21, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::: Cool template. :)
 +
 
 +
:::: It's been a long time since I've actually set up my Godwiki preferences. Is the gender preference from the users settings automatically populated from their God/Goddess status, or does it default to something (hopefully gender neutral)? I would also suggest removing the link to the hero(ine) talk page, as messages left their won't trigger an alert to the user when they next visit, so 99% would never be seen.
 +
 
 +
:::: I know that a bunch of image use templates are used on wikipedia and a lot of other wikis. They've never been used here, obviously, and I thing there's some reasons for that. My main question about the file use template, which isn't obvious to me... who is expected to be placing these templates on images, and when? And within 'who', I'm bundling in a question about how familiar that group of intended users are with templates, parameters, etc, and how they will find out about the template.
 +
 
 +
:::: Is it intended to be a part of the spring clean effort, a way for people to mark their images as still wanted? Because if that's the case, I think it's way too hard to use (our target group there is likely to have ''very'' little wiki literacy). I honestly would think that simply removing the {{tlf|delete}} template from an image they want kept will be at the upper limits of what folks will figure out how to do. If this is the intended use, I would ''really'' aim for purest of simplicity. E.g., something named along the lines of {{tlc|Keep image}} with one optional unnamed parameter for the username, with documentation that recommends placing in pages like so: {{tlc|Keep image|&#126;&#126;&#126;}}. (An {{tlc|&#35;ifexist: User:{{param|1}}}} would catch cases where a username is manually entered.)
 +
 
 +
:::: My biggest concern is that it will just not be used. Or, more specifically, that it will become another thing that we wiki gardeners will need to do on every uploaded image, just for our own benefit, in which case I wonder if ''we'' would actually take the time use it, switching between screens and copy-pasting stuff to fill in all those parameters with other people's information...? Does it offer us materially more information than the "File usage" section at the bottom? -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 10:42, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::::: In arelated vein, ref [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=SilverWolves&curid=7105&diff=111013&oldid=47834 this edit] comment: {{tqi|after said guilds no longer exist...? What do we do with these? Redirect to Main Page certainly isn't the answer}}
 +
 
 +
::::: I completely agree, and it's something we've discussed  a little (at [[Talk:Main_Page/Archive#Many_GodWiki_pages_need_to_be_deleted]], which we should consider un-archiving as part of the spring clean). As you'll see there, I agree that the main page redirects are a terrible solution, and have already argued that those redirects should be removed, but we didn't reach consensus. It was a part of why I created {{tl|Delete guild}}, and arged that these pages should go into a special Category. (I suggested 'Category:Dead guilds' at the time, but I don't think that 'dead' is the right word anymore, and would argue for 'Category:Guilds not widely known on Godville', in light of later discussion with {{u|WardPhoenix}} at [[Template talk:Delete guild]].) -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 11:23, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
{{outdent|:::::}}
 +
I’ve seen a few edits by people who have done such redirects with the excuse “it’s not going to be deleted anyway.” Aside from how pessimistic or cynical that is, redirecting pages to Main Page without using “Delete” when, at the time, it actually existed, seems a bit... weird and arbitrary.
 +
 
 +
The preference defaults to gender neutral.
 +
 
 +
Ideally, I would like the template on all images (and I can rewrite it to make it easier to use for inexperienced editors). In other words, it would (hopefully) be something the uploader can just copy and paste into the “description” box when they upload (ie: in the same vein as the article infobox templates). It’s purpose isn’t to mark things as “to keep” but to show the purpose of an image in a clear manner. The only place I’d really say it’s required is when images are no longer in use, or images uploaded for the forums. Like with other other guideline articles, we can move the image guidelines to a separate, dedicated, article, and describe how to use the template. Alternatively, we can add a “Images” subheading to the guideline articles, describing a case-by-case use of the template.
 +
 
 +
Really, though, I don’t think it’s that important if the template is on the monster, artifact, equipment, and quests. Those are half obvious. The message is pretty redundant and unnecessary on those anyway, I only added those parameters for consistency with the types of images uploaded. Ie: I would only suggest putting them on guild/god/hero images.
 +
 
 +
What I could also do is split up the template into “guild-file” “god-file” and “hero-file” templates making the usage much easier (like we do with the already split guild, usergod, hero, and the other templates.)
 +
 
 +
The “File usage” at the bottom, especially if the files aren’t used, gives *no* information (and neither does the description in most cases). Anything the template says would be information that section cannot provide. Not to mention, this information wouldn’t disappear as soon as the file goes into disuse.
 +
 
 +
Though, I don’t see how the usage of this template really affects our spring cleaning. Like I did with stubs, if we ultimately decide to use the template (if even in a subset of files), we can remove the category references if we add said template.
 +
 
 +
— [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 15:37, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
: As a side note, I've started categorizing the files. I started from most recently uploaded to the least recently uploaded. If you guys see new files on the wiki that haven't been categorized, do you mind categorizing them (that's why I started from most recent, I'll eventually clear through my 4,786 image backlog and then we only need to worry about new images)
 +
 
 +
: I'm putting notes on my edits where possible, you all might want to read them as they contain ideas/suggestions, potential copyright issues, etc.. Recent changes only shows up to 500 edits, so to see all of mine, you'll have to go to [[Special:Contributions/Emptysora|my contributions]]. They're all in the format "categorizing: {categories} [(notes)]". Similarly to hide my file edits on Recent changes, you have to select "File" from the namespace menu, and check "Invert Selection".
 +
 
 +
: As per usual, I uploaded the script I'm using to my website, so you can download it if you want. Details on how it works are on [[User:Emptysora|my user page]]. (all the way at the bottom)
 +
 
 +
: I'm planning on going through roughly 500 images a day (might only do 300 today because of how late it is right now), so I should be completely done in under two weeks.
 +
 
 +
: I quick overview of the script: Scrapes the list of files on the server using [[Special:ListFiles]], provides a semi-automatic way to edit images. It provides a sidebar with a bunch of buttons that can add/remove categories from the page, and another sidebar that views the "Read" page of the file (so you can see the image/description/file usages/etc.). It removes the copyright warning in the editor so the "Save changes" button is in-view (less scrolling). It removes the "delete|unused" template call automatically. and automatically sets the edit to "minor" and the summary to "categorizing: [categories]" (auto-updated). Every time you save the page (or click "Read" to exit the editor), the script moves on to the next image on the site, allowing you to sequentially batch edit the files. '''(EDIT)''' [https://gyazo.com/cf4a94d8a5bf6431851c6ad58b856256 Screenshot].
 +
 
 +
: -- [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 02:20, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:: Touching this thread just to let people know I haven’t forgotten about it. I '''will''' get to this. Kind of been busy lately, sorry. You can see my user page for a more up to date status of this project (and other projects I’m working on). — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 02:42, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
 
 +
 
 +
== Subpages for main namespace ==
 +
 
 +
According to [[Mediawikiwiki:Help:Subpages|MW:Help:Subpages]], subpages are disabled for the main namespace. Should I submit a Feedback => Other asking for them to add the Main namespace to $wgNamespacesWithSubpages?
 +
 
 +
If we are going to suggest that guilds use subpages instead of not subpages, shouldn’t they be enabled...? I only noticed this now as I was dealing with HM’s main namespace pages and didn’t see the breadcrumb links. — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 21:43, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
: That seems like a good thing to submit, though it may not be accepted. Since there are already subpages being used in practice in Main, the primary advantages would be:
 +
 
 +
:* Better breadcrumb navigation (or, breadcrumb navigation in Main at all)
 +
:* Correct subpage moves if required
 +
 
 +
:The only subpages I know of in Main are Guild (off the top of my head, ref. the [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?search=Harvest%20Moon&title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=1 HM subpages,] [[Russia/statistics]], [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?search=The%20Forsakens%20Lament&title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=1 TFL subpages]) and some user pages in the main namespace (including my own [[Djonni/Shared sandbox]]... We'll see if the Devs feel it's worth enabling for those cases. With the changes to user templates that are being discussed and worked on, subpages with infobox templates may become more common for guilds. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 13:27, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:: Submitted~! — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 15:52, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
== A Godwiki survey? ==
 +
 
 +
One of the thing I had planned at one point of [[SummerWiki 2019]] was a poll to vote for best article. The idea was to make maybe people that didn't participate aware of the articles and make them read those and further if possibly. After all, people lile to vote [[anonymouse]], so I though a poll would have been an idea to present the godwiki.
 +
 
 +
Soooo, I was wondering if doing an anonymous survey for the Godwiki could lure people there and maybe tell us why people aren't using it that much (or atleast not contributing much). There is thousands of actives gods and wey less active right here.
 +
And maybe with those answers we could improve the godwiki to lure more people in.
 +
 
 +
I have never done such a survey so well, if you thought it's a good idea, let's work on it together once more! -- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 22:58, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
'''Random samples of questions'''
 +
 
 +
* How often do you use the Godwiki.
 +
* If you don't use the Godwiki tell us why
 +
** Too hard to use
 +
** Don't see why I should use it
 +
** etc.
 +
 
 +
* If you use Godwiki, do you contribute often to it?
 +
* If you don't contribute to it tell us why.
 +
** Too complicated
 +
** Not confident in english
 +
** Don't care
 +
** etc.
 +
 
 +
*Are you aware of events that happened and could happens on the Godwiki?
 +
 
 +
* What do you like on the Godwiki
 +
* What don't you like on the Godwiki
 +
 
 +
* What you would like to see on Godwiki?
 +
 
 +
* What do you think could be improved on the Godwiki?
 +
 
 +
* Were you aware there are volunteers ready to help you with Godwiki articles?
 +
 
 +
* Were you aware that you could create your personnal page on the Godwiki ?
 +
 
 +
:: Are you suggesting like a Google Forms or SurveyMonkey survey be posted as an alert on the main page? Since most of my motivation for editing is to make editing as painless as possible for other people, I’m actually completely on-board with with idea.
 +
 
 +
:: If we do do a survey, I would suggest making the aggregate results public (eg: announcing it on the main page).
 +
 
 +
:: We could also not do this as a one-time thing, but a recurring thing at set intervals.
 +
 
 +
:: I would suggest that instead of the conditional question for not contributing, we ask the question and then provide a set of “How much do you agree with the following statements” questions after it. Eg: “The editing guidelines are easy to understand.” (And others... I just can’t think of any)
 +
 
 +
:: I’d ask a conditional question “Have you recently posted a request for help on Help:Requests?” And if so, do another “how much agree” set. Like: “I feel that my request was satisfactorily resolved.” (Etc) optionally asking the name of the volunteer/for more info they want to provide.
 +
 
 +
:: Lastly I’d suggest on the last page we add an optional field asking for god name (should they want to provide it), and an option to perhaps request that we contact them...? Similarly, an “any additional comments” field.
 +
 
 +
:: I know I say all of this, but, the simpler the form, the better. Likewise, the less text and shorter the form, the better. I don’t expect us to do all of what I just wrote, I’m just throwing it out there. — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 00:33, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::: I'm definitely on-board for this, with a few hesitations.
 +
 
 +
::: Getting surveys right is ''hard''. Phrasing questions well requires a ''lot'' of thought, so let's not rush. I think we need to keep a few things in mind:
 +
:::* Any question that requires typing will cause some people to just stop doing the survey in immediately.
 +
:::* We don't have permission to collect personal information, and shouldn't ask for it. No god name fields at all, no personal information at all, neither the respondent's nor others' (e.g., editors who helped them)
 +
:::* Information from the community belongs to the community. ''All'' answers should be anonymous, anonymized if necessary, and then the data made available to everyone, once we check through to ensure there is no personal or inappropriate information included (all text that is kept would have to comply with the game rules, not mention any individuals or guilds, etc. Any response that wasn't suitable to be made public would need to be discarded)
 +
 
 +
::: There's probably others but I'm still working on my first coffee.
 +
 
 +
::: A cautious thumbs up from this guy. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 06:39, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
{{outdent|::::}} I’m going to start going to you, {{u|Djonni}}, when I have questions about privacy practices... heh.
 +
 
 +
But yes, everything you said is very valid. Maybe at most, on the final screen (very end) an additional comments field that’s entirely optional.
 +
 
 +
Surveys certainly are hard, my first reaction to a survey from a company I’m not entirely on board with (virtually everything aside from Mozilla/MDN surveys) is, “Ugh. No thank you,” if I am in a good mood, and, “Yeah, no. I don’t need more people tracking me and my opinions,” otherwise. The longer the survey, the more likely I am to abandon it too.
 +
 
 +
I mean, I’m not attached to the idea of collecting god/volunteer names anyway. That’s probably just useless information at best and asking for trouble at worst. I’m not even attached to having text fields. The “how much do you agree” kind of things are more than enough for the vast majority of the things we might be looking for. Using them results in less text the user has to read too, which should, if even just a little, raise the odds of someone completing the survey. The most successful surveys are short and sweet. Eg: “would you recommend us to a friend?” (Y/N), “why?” (Text), end of form. — [[User:Emptysora|Emptysora]] ([[User talk:Emptysora|talk]]) 07:38, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
: [https://fr.surveymonkey.com/r/8HZCN7W A draft of what could be done as a survey]. Updated the link for the draft, try to answer it so I can see how the results appears and give feedback about it if you don't mind! --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 14:45, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
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 +
:: Some informations from what I can see at the moments: there is possibility to keep the survey anonymous easily (just a parameter to check) and there is detailled results for each questions even, written ones. --[[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 14:20, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
== Pages marked for deletion tend to redirect here ==
 +
 
 +
I don't think this is a good practice. See [https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=Special%3AWhatLinksHere&hidetrans=1&hidelinks=1&target=Main+Page&namespace= this page] for a list of redirects to the main page. --[[User:Uni34|Uni34]] ([[User talk:Uni34|talk]]) 08:14, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
: Yup, I completely agree. The main page redirects came first in most cases, and were then marked for deletion. I argued for the redirects to simply be replaced with {{tlc|Delete}}, as I felt then and still do that those redirects are very disorientating for people especially for people who don't understand how wikis work. But this conversation happened a while ago, (I can't find it now) and folks didn't seem to agree with me, so I started adding {{tl|Delete}} to those redirects as I came across them, leaving the redirects in place.
 +
 
 +
: But, since someone else has brought it up again... I completely agree, redirecting hundreds of random unneeded pages to the Main Page instead of marking then for deletion with a clear reason was, I think, always a bad idea! I'd love to get rid of aaallllll those redirects if those here now agree that it's a good idea. -- [[User:Djonni|Djonni]] ([[User talk:Djonni|talk]]) 08:33, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
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 +
:: 👍-- [[User:WardPhoenix|WardPhoenix]] ([[User talk:WardPhoenix|talk]]) 01:53, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 01:53, 29 December 2019

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Main Page article.
This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.

Article policies
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  • Neutral point of view when appropriate
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  • Assume good faith
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  • Respond in a mature manner
  • Be welcoming
  • Maintain civility at all times


This page has an archive

Old and/or inactive discussions have been moved to the /Archive subpage.

Encouraging use of user talk pages

So, I've written this message, which I'm thinking of going around and (manually) placing on the User talk pages of everyone whose User: page is redirected to the main-article space, to point out that they won't receive talk-page message notifications unless they use their corresponding user talk page.

(This covers two types of users:)

  1. Those with user talk pages like User talk:BlueStapler, User talk:Hershey Almighty, etc. that are redirected to Talk:BlueStapler, Talk:Hershey Almighty, etc.
  2. Users like User:Hairplug4men, User:EJ Rose, etc. with redirected User pages, who have no redirect for their user talk page.

Basically it's about 50 people, I have a whole list. Most of them are probably not active users, but I'd plan to contact them all regardless. If they never see it, oh well. If they do, then great.

I just wanted to solicit feedback before I start.

With Special:ExpandTemplates, you can see what the message would look like when it's placed on Djonni's talk page (as an example). Click the following url:

https://wiki.godvillegame.com/index.php?title=Special:ExpandTemplates&wpInput=%7b%7bsafesubst:User:FeRDNYC/User+Talk+Message%7d%7d&wpContextTitle=User+talk:Djonni

You'll see the formatted message at the bottom of the page. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 01:51, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

It seems some people keeps on redirect their user page to another page for some reasons, tried to leave messages but it don't seem to reach through. Well it's not really a serious issue but still happens. --WardPhoenix (talk) 16:03, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Honestly, though, that's fine and if people want to do it then more power to 'em. (There are all sorts of reasons why someone might want to, including intending their user page to be editable by other people. That's the reason Djonni (talkcontribs) specifically gives on his talk page.) If people want to keep a "god" page in the article namespace, as long as it's properly categorized no harm done. It's only when the corresponding talk page isn't redirected back to User talk: space that there's a down side. But it works just fine to maintain a non-User:Foo userpage at Foo, with a Talk:Foo page that redirects to User talk:foo, and doing that means they won't miss notifications. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 20:49, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, the example-message URL above was "down" for a couple of weeks, as I'd repurposed the page in question to do canvassing for the JanuWiki post-mortem and forgot to set it back afterwards. Anyway, it's working again now. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 16:54, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
I'm joining this conversation pretty late, and FeRDNYC hasn't been around the wiki since April... does anyone know if he went ahead with the plan? I think it's a very good idea, speaking from my own experience with an unredirected talk page! -- Djonni (talk) 09:03, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

I don't think he end up doing it, but I could be wrong.--WardPhoenix (talk) 13:29, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, alright. I found his draft at User:FeRDNYC/User Talk Message. I think it's a bit wordy personally, and gets a little lost in the weeds about the history of notifications on mediawiki sites, and needs a heavy edit. But I think his idea is really good and we should work up a better draft and go ahead with it.
It's a shame he isn't around at the moment (I'll leave him a talkback regardless!) because he went to the trouble of compiling a list of the affected users and we don't have it! I'll have to do that myself. -- Djonni (talk) 15:07, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Theming or Other Event Brainstorms

FeRDNYC makes a really good point above that two big events a year would be amazing, but that there's also opportunities for smaller events. With the basis that JanuWiki should now be an annual event, perhaps this should be a list of other event or drive ideas (big and small) that we could do, to figure out how we could space things to still get necessary stuff done. -- SourceRunner (talk) 17:37, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

  • JanuWiki 2020: Year of the WikiGnome/GodWikiStmas -- Big event. Next JanuWiki. Starts when? Ends January 31, 2020. Wrap-up ends February 29, 2020. Theming granularity? Process certainties?
  • Guidelines and Guide Resources Drive

(Please expand)

  • Easter Interlink Special -- Small event. EIS Eternal would be willing to sponsor a small wiki event during the Easter week or two weeks, with the object of adding links between pages on GodWiki (with reasonable reasons for doing so). One of the wiki strengths is the ability to create an ecosystem of lore, and the best way to explore that is following links between pages. So there could be the a specific event that GodWiki editors and content creators each chose a pair of pages to interlink, and write the lore between them that explains their relationships in the ecosystem and links the two. A report to the "Help Request" page when finished a pairing would make the pair's linker eligible for a reward of some sort after EIS checks that it has been done and does make sense.
  • Trans-Lore-Ation -- Small event. A lot of Godville lore is in the forums and tucked away in little sections of personal chronicles. As players, we in common tend to "know" this lore to be true, but not have it on GodWiki. How about a small event where people scavenger-hunt their favorite descriptions of towns, taverns, monsters, and Godville myths from the older parts of forums and the crannies of guild and personal pages, then add excerpts and possible links to the applicable pages in GodWiki.
  • Stub It Out -- Large event. Survey what articles with the "Stub" tag are still stubs, and remove tags where appropriate. Expand articles that are still stubs.
  • "Wherefore ART Thou?" -- Large event(?). Adding art to the "picture needed" category articles. Some artists need a long time to plan, so this may need to be a slow or multi-phase event.
Could be associated with the stub event maybe?


Sounds like there is some good ideas ready for the oven. I'd say that if you want to throw an event, just go for it. Create a page for it and allow us to help for the preparation.
Maybe we should make like a planner for upcomming events. By the way, talks about upcomming event may be more appropriate on the main talk
As for JanuWiki2020 (or GodWikiStmas maybe), I'd say we have the time to see it coming. Let's care of other event before.
--WardPhoenix (talk) 23:55, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
As another idea for a possible event (I don't even know if it would be considered big or small), Category:Pictures needed is up to 314 entries. That's 314 existing articles (primarily ones that use {{Monster}}, {{Artifact}}, or {{Equipment}}) which don't have an image to go with their subject. Trimming that list down a bit could also be a good way to get non-writers involved in creating wiki content. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 06:39, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
Oh, yes, and Category:Stubs is up to 552 articles that (in theory) need fleshing-out.
I say "in theory" because some of them may not really be stubs, having been expanded since they were tagged that way. In the "Advanced options" at the bottom of the appearance preferences is the option "Threshold for stub link formatting". It takes a length (in bytes) an article's source must be so it's not considered a stub. Links to all articles shorter than that threshold will be colored with a darker shade of red than the standard redlink coloring.
I currently have that preference set to 1000 bytes, and still some of the items in Category:Stubs are colored blue. It's certainly possible for an article that's over 1000 bytes long to also be a stub, but it's also possible that there's already plenty of content there and the stub designation is outdated / overzealous. I'd say maybe 10-15% of the category's members show non-stub link coloring. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 07:00, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
These are great ideas for events, WardPhoenix and FeRDNYC. I've added them to the bullet point list above, and tried to evaluate them as large or small, based on your descriptions. Please feel free to expand or change what's in the bullet list.
WardPhoenix, good suggestion about the planner/calendar for events. Is something like that possible in GodWiki, FeRDNYC? --SourceRunner (talk) 15:21, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

I'd say that if you want to throw an event, just go for it. Create a page for it and allow us to help for the preparation.
— User:WardPhoenix

I would agree with that, with one small adjustment: When you decide you definitely are throwing an event, creating a page for it would be the first step in preparing for it, and can serve as the formal announcement of the upcoming event.
I think Djonni worked up to JanuWiki 2019 exactly the right way (whether intentionally or by pure luck): He put out feelers on the forums and in a proposal here at Talk:Main Page, and used those discussions to solicit feedback and take the community's temperature on the idea. Then once he was sure there was sufficient interest that he could commit to definitely doing an event, he pulled the trigger on creating the event page, at which point he had someplace he could link to as a "more information" resource when he made the official announcement(s) about the upcoming event.
At any stage of planning, there's always the possibility that an event could end up getting cancelled for lack of involvement or interest. Things happen. But that risk can be minimized by getting at least a core team on board before putting a lot of work into constructing an event framework for a "maybe" or "possible" event. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 14:43, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Moved this to the main page as it is more appropriate place and also easier to reach (yeah I'm lazy to reach for januwiki page every time on my phone). By the way I think the EIS event would be quite interesting, and as easter is coming i'd suggest we start thinking about it if you really want to kick it. On a side note, I don't think a guideline event would be appropriate. Guidelines are supposed to be wrote by experimented and active users for beginners. That's more something we have to work on with experimented users I'd say. -- WardPhoenix (talk) 23:02, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

That's a fair point, re: the Guidelines. I guess it depends how broadly you define "event". Certainly, you're right, guidelines-updates aren't the sort of free-for-all activity where we'd put out a call to the entire Godville user community for participation. Maybe "an effort", or "a sprint" (to employ some of my least-favorite software development jargon), among those experienced users.
That being said...
  1. A lot of what's lacking in the current Guidelines articles just comes down to formatting, copyediting, structure, and layout fixes — things that could be done by almost anyone, especially with guidance, as there's no real expertise needed. (However, as they also need major content updates, they're definitely not entirely fixable by casual editors alone. But they could be vastly improved.)
  2. Because (as you say) the target audience for the Guidelines is inexperienced users, in my experience it's a huge mistake to write them without any input from users at or near that level. One of the things I learned in software development is that you never have the senior programmer, the one who wrote most of the code and knows every aspect of the software inside-and-out, write the instruction manual. If they try, 90% of the time it'll end up being unintelligible to the "average users" it's supposed to be written for.

    (It's the same reason you NEVER sign up for a freshman-level "Intro to Whatever" class if it's taught by that department's most senior, most published, most brilliant researcher. Very few people whose knowledge of a topic is at that level will be capable of "dumbing things down" sufficiently that they can effectively teach it to students who have virtually no background in the subject. Everything will go right over their heads.)

The two trickiest problems in documentation don't have anything to do with knowledge or accuracy of information: The first is figuring out exactly where your target audience is at in terms of background knowledge and skill level, so that you know which things need to be explained, vs. what they probably already know so you don't waste their time repeating it. The other problem, then, is being able to explain things at that level, without leaving out any of the information they need because it's just implicitly assumed or seems "obvious" to someone with more experience.
...But, all that being said I agree that Guidelines updates wouldn't make sense as an "event" in the JanuWiki mold, where we try to solicit come-one-come-all participation from as many users as possible. Heck, they may not be a very good fit for any sort of organized "group effort" at all — our best bet may be for someone to eventually just dive in and start making Bold changes to define an updated, improved structure for the content. Even if they only update a single Guideline article, once there's an example to work off of, other editors can pitch in to apply the same changes to the rest of the Guidelines. (That sort of example-based, follow-the-leader model is how most content-wide changes propagate here, really. Djonni created the {{hero or heroine}} template set, but he's responsible for only a handful of edits that applied those templates to article content.) -- FeRDNYC (talk) 14:43, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

JanuWiki 2020 Ideas and Planning

Heya once again! I did a bit of poking around in the JanuWiki 2019 page, and couldn't find any plans for what the next theme is gonna be. It never hurts to start planning early, so I kinda decided to start gathering a few ideas. After looking around the internet for some potential New Year themes, I have three potential suggestions:

  1. A glasses/vision-related theme. It's going to be 2020 - it shall be the year of perfect vision and clarity!
  2. Something related to time. Similar reason as the first one (mostly because I already anticipate all of the 'hindsight is 20/20' puns that the year will bring), but there's also the whole 'marking of another year going by'. Sounds a bit on the melodramatic side, though.
  3. Chinese zodiac time! Now, there isn't exactly a whole lot of potential rodent-themed articles on here (2020 is the year of the Rat, after all), but I did some cross-referencing! Apparently there are Chinese elemental years too, and next year's element is going to be Metal. So, Metal/Rat articles?

I know it's really early, but I really want to help the next JanuWiki be like the first one (cuz seriously, the sheer number of content was really amazing + fun to read)! What do you guys think? --Arcanedreamer (talk) 02:47, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Arcanedreamer, I actually think that those are pretty great ideas! I for one have try to give JanuWiki 2020 any serious thought, but using a 20/20 theme is a brilliant thought!
One (really great) thing that happened with JanuWiki 2019 is that as the event rolled on we had to expand and extend it to new themes, bring more ideas into the event, and keep offering don't exciting new ideas for people who just didn't get inputted enough by the first tranche of suggestions. So having a handful of interesting, related-ish, but quite diverse options is really valuable. I think working with the 20/20 concepts you've suggested first (vision, hindsight, foresight, time) is an excellent focal point (pun intended), with metal and rodent articles tucked up our sleeves for when/if we need to grow the theme. For 2019, we started all about beer, and from brainstorming and adapting we added bosses, lions, tigers, and bears over the month. So we've seen that a diverse and interesting collection of ideas can really help catch the interest of folks who might only like one part of it.
Later today I'll do some surveying to see what missing or stubbed articles will be captured by these themes, and that will give us a more concrete notion of how they would look for an event! -- Djonni (talk) 08:38, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
Themes' Ideas looks good. I wonder if doing a survey on the forums could be usefull to see if people would be willing to participate in the event, and what they think could be improved compared to previous ones. --WardPhoenix (talk) 18:33, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
I'm actually really happy you guys like my ideas! So, thing is, I already did a bit of artwork in anticipation of JanuWiki 2020. I'm perfectly fine with doing a couple more items in order to make the event look even better, but I'd like to know ahead of time if that's okay. And if so, maybe let me know ASAP if there's any specific items you guys would want so that I don't have to do a rush job at the last minute? --Arcanedreamer (talk) 19:49, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
So, I got around to that thing I said I would do yesterday... I've started a survey of possible articles for the two theme groups (20/20 and Metal Rat) at Djonni/Shared sandbox (note that I've intentionally kept that out of my User: area so that everybody can tinker with, improve or extend it). I was pretty inclusive about what I captured for the 20/20 theme, and only just started on the Metal Rat articles (I've saved it in progress, I'll carry on and on anon. 🎵🎶Alalalalalonglonglilonglonglong, sing it🎶🎵
I definitely agree WardPhoenix, we should take this to the forums, but before w're ready to do that we should have a very clear idea of what the theme ideas we're presenting are, I think, so that folks there have some concrete, fully though out and fleshed out things to discuss and contribute to. Let's discuss and refine the articles and concepts a little more together here first!
And for readers who are following this but have not yet joined the conversation — please share your thoughts, good, bad, or whatever they may be!
Arcanedreamer, whoa, I'm pretty impressed by your artwork there! Personally I think that's a great piece of decoration for the main page announcement, and will probably be useful in places on the main event page too, fantastic work! Something that I discovered doing the theme survey — Did You Know that there's actually a Steel Rat monster in Godville? I feel like the Steel Rat would make an excellent mascot for JanuWiki 2020, regardless of how the theming conversation goes, what do you guys think? Your geometric artwork there is excellent, Arcanedreamer, I suspect a Steel Rat is much harder. Do you think it's within your scope? There will probably be some reuse-permitted images we could use, so it's entirely up to you! :) -- Djonni (talk) 14:45, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
Djonni, I hear a mild challenge in there. I shall accept and prove your skepticism wrong! In all seriousness, though, it sounds like a fun way to push at my pixel art boundaries (I've been doing nothing but inanimate objects so far, ehehe....)! Also, two things - should I go ahead and place whatever JanuWiki 2020 art I end up creating in the sandbox? And are there any other art requests? --Arcanedreamer (talk) 15:07, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

It looks like from Djonni/Shared sandbox that there is already quite the amount of articles found within both them (good work finding them by the way). So now, what? Do we use the forum to see if there is people interested in a potential event before throwing anything and thinking of the form JanuWiki 2020 could take? --WardPhoenix (talk) 13:58, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Sorry guys, been a busy week at work! Arcanedreamer, your Steel Rat is great! I'm very impressed! :D
Yeah, WardPhoenix, if you guys are happy with the lists at Djonni/Shared sandbox then we should probably take it to the forum. I'll create a dedicated talk topic for JanuWiki 2020 ideas and planning, so that folks don't feel like they need to wade through months of discussion above to get up to speed. -- Djonni (talk) 15:48, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
Well, I just posted an offensively long message on the forums (Godville Forum topic 308, post 1274998) so if anyone's masochistic enough to actually read it, welcome to the conversation! 😅 -- Djonni (talk) 17:38, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
Bold of you to assume that I would think reading a long forum post is a masochistic action. In all seriousness, I think you did a good job doing an early advertisement for the event! Hopefully it'll attract old and new participants alike~! --Arcanedreamer (talk) 23:47, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
So, with the new Book of Creation update, should we consider a chance in focus to all things related to words, books, and writing? -- Djonni (talk) 16:53, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
Maybe? I mean, on one hand, I think we're fine with the themes we already have - look at how many articles that are already available! On the other hand, people tend to be a lot more hyped up for new things, so there's a pretty good chance that more people would be interested. In the end, I guess it just depends on how big you're expecting this next JanuWiki is gonna be. --Arcanedreamer (talk) 02:33, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I've done a rapid survey of book and word themed items at Djonni/Shared sandbox#Books and words. The main takeaway from that is that there's essentially no monsters (the most popular creator category by far) and a huuuge list of artifacts that don't offer the same variety and breadth that the other categories do.

It might still be nice for us to do something about books and words with the Book of Creation update, but I think making it a part of JanuWiki isn't going to create a lot of excitement.

And to answer that question, Arcanedreamer, I am anticipating that this JanuWiki will be a little smaller than the last one. But we won't know until we see for ourselves. :) -- Djonni (talk) 06:49, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Decoration Questions and Art Requests

Alrighty, so I noticed that the navboxes for the past GodWiki vents tend to have a neat little picture instead of a simple dot separating the different articles. I'm not entirely sure how that works - is there a way to place our own pics (I.E. some specialized JanuWiki pixel art icons) in there, or are we limited to a preset group of images? I was about to start working on a few icon designs before realizing that I didn't know if we're able to even use them. --Arcanedreamer (talk) 05:10, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Well when I made {{navbox items}} I built in quite a bit of flexibility for exactly this kind of reason! :) Using the |bullet= parameter, you can set the separator between list items to anything you want. We usually use emoji characters for this, which has benefits and drawbacks, but there's no reason why we can't use an image!
The image that we use in the {{god}} template for this: GodArcanedreamer  is rendered as 17x17 pixels, making it just a little taller than the line on most screens. In the wiki software used to run the GodWiki, there's no way to make the size of an image dynamic in any way, so we will have to decide on pixel dimensions to use (and the wiki doesn't have support for any vector image types either, so a small bullet-sized image won't stretch or shrink well on a lot of screens).
If you think you can come up with some cool tiny bullet images for navbox use, I think that would be great! We can do a bit of experimenting and see how well it works. I'll leave choices about size up to you, but it might be wise to aim for something that's around 12x12 to 8x8, and using transparency if you don't want it to be a square block :)
To test out how it looks in a navbox list, use this:
{{navbox items|bullet=[[File:Filename.ext]]|List item one|List item two|List item three}}
Which should give you something like this:
List item one Godicon.png List item two Godicon.png List item three
If you want to play with different render sizes, you can put |12x12px or |10x10px etc in the image options like [[File:...|12x12px]]. :) -- Djonni (talk) 06:31, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

File namespace pass (pass to mark images for deletion)

Shortly, I will be going through the file namespace (specifically the items listed on Special:UnusedFiles) and mass marking files for deletion.

According to Rules:

4. GodWiki is not an image-hosting platform, and images should never be uploaded "in case they're useful" or "to be used at some point" but only for immediate use in an article. Images which are not used in articles may be deleted without notice.
— Rules

I interpret this to mean that anything in the Special:UnusedFiles report can be safely marked for deletion under the Images which are not used in articles may be deleted without notice. sentence. However, the keyword there is may. That means that images won't necessarily be deleted just for not being on a page. I've been trying to think of scenarios where images would be kept vs deleted (since some of the images in Special:UnusedFiles might be worth keeping).

So far, I've come up with these scenarios:

  • Images with watermarks (eg: File:Greyscale.jpg)
  • Images not related to the game at all (excluding images of heroes/gods) (perhaps: File:104866108.jpg)
  • Images related to the game but do not have an article created (eg: File:Feralpetrock.jpg)
  • Images related to the game but not included on any page (eg: File:Undead garden gnome.jpg)
  • Images of diary entries and other in-games screens (which otherwise have no purpose since the diary and diaryquest templates exist, eg: File:Dust Kitty.png)
  • Images of formulas that are not listed on any page (eg: File:Fo3.gif)
    • If necessary, I can go through and try to determine what these formulas are (eg: the linked one above is probably a formula to estimate temple completion)
  • Images with no discernible purpose or description (eg: File:Founder.jpg)
  • Images that appear to be duplicates of other images (eg: File:Beer-bottle-tree.jpg and File:Beer-bottle-tree1.jpg)
    • If they're perfectly identical, I can just mark one of them for deletion
    • If they're different sizes, I can mark the smaller one for deletion

Unfortunately, I can't detect if an image used to be on any pages by nature of MediaWiki. (I was thinking about exporting the diffs of each page and searching them for [[Image:xxx]]] or [[File:xxx]]. But I don't want to do that because that would put a lot of strain on the database/website [probably], and I don't want to be responsible for if anything happens.)

I'll be considering the nature of the images (as listed in the scenarios above), as well as the age of the image, who uploaded it (mainly to see if Spode or a few others uploaded it. Spode created a bunch of templates and other things that have since been marked for deletion (Usually Spode was the one to mark his templates as such))

Worst case, you'll be able to see which ones I have marked for deletion in Category:Marked for deletion and on my dummy page (User talk:Emptysora/dummy) when I add them there (which will be as I go along, but I'll save after every couple hundred or so). If you feel a file shouldn't be on there, feel free to discuss it here or on the file's talk page.

The main reason I have been going through the Special:UnusedTemplates, Special:UnusedFiles, and Special:UnusedCategories special pages is so that we can actually use those reports as intended. Ie: I'm adding everything that has been marked for deletion to my dummy page such that they're removed from those reports. The page is in User talk because the User namespace is semi-protected (but User talk isn't). IE: If I go off for a month and things are unnominated or the devs actually clear the category out, you'll be able to modify the page to remove the deleted pages from the Special:Wanted reports.

Before I start "pruning" (mass-marking these images for deletion), I wanted to hear some opinions about this. To be safe, if there's anything I'm not sure about, I'll post a reply to this thread asking for more opinions on a case-by-case basis. To start out, I've listed the example images from above. -- Emptysora (talk) 21:08, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

I don't think there is something wrong about marking any unused pictures with "To delete". That whats the Recommandation #4 say that happens to those pictures anyway, we can still upload new pictures when needed.... The problem remains the same, we can't delete them ourselves. I don't know if that's something easy to do/useful from dev POV though. -- WardPhoenix (talk) 22:41, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
What I was thinking about is if we could perhaps every so often submit an "Other" report to the devs via feedback and ask them to clear out Category:Marked for deletion. (Eg: maybe once a year). From a dev perspective, I don't think there's an easy way to batch the deletion. At least not without installing extensions such as DeleteBatch or Nuke. The only thing I can think of is if we made a template that would link to the confirmed delete action and create a page where all they had to do was to click links to delete the pages. That poses an issue of, say, if a malicious actor modified the page before the admins get to it (not that our special category doesn't have that risk either). Aside from that, the devs would have to go into each page, drop down the "More" menu, and click the "Delete" option that's listed for them.
I just think that just because we can't delete pages doesn't mean we shouldn't be looking to (hence why I'm doing this). -- Emptysora (talk) 23:03, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
Passed through the list and whittled it down to 317 (when it used to be at 1200~). Gonna apologize now since that action probably will make people's lives miserable when they check Special:RecentChanges. Tip: Set "namespace" to "File" and check the "Invert selection" box (which might not work on mobile) to hide my recent File edits (which is over 800). I'll do some more tomorrow. -- Emptysora (talk) 02:10, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Nobody's been willing to go through this so thoroughly in ever, Emptysora, so 👏👏👏 well done! I have a small suggestion as to how to best use all this work of yours. I think it's worth trying to turn this into a genuine cleanup, and make it as easy as possible for the Devs to do that big batch delete. I've always had a concern that there's quite a lot of material in those old pictures that is copyrighted or lacks suitable licensing, and shouldn't be here.
We could, if we want to be generous, post a message on the forum about this and give fokls a grace period to come and rescue anything they wanted kept. I also think it's wise to exclude anything which is a screenshot of the game, as there are lots of genuine reasons why someone may have one of those uploaded without being in use on a page (and, since they're material from the game, they pose no threat of copyright or licencing violations at all). But, assuming those two things are done, I think that it's worth you submitting an Ideabox->Other to the Devs asking them to do a batch delete (with links to those extensions, as they might find that useful).
To make it as easy as possible for that deletion to go ahead, I can modify {{delete}} so that it checks if it's on an image page (i.e., in the File: namespace), and adds those images to a new [[Category:Files marked for deletion]], which will make not just this batch deletion easier, but future image cleanups as well. We will then in future simply be able to drop a {{delete}} onto images as needed, and once there's enough to make it worth the trouble, pop a fresh request through to the Devs.
I suspect they will actually be glad for the opportunity to clear all that old junk out, especially if we point out that there's copyrighted and unlicensed material sprinkled through it. For most of the Godwiki's history, image licensing issues have never been adequately emphasised, but I really think it needs to be something we're much more assiduous about, and this big image cleanup will really help with that. 👏 again! -- Djonni (talk) 11:02, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── The only screenshots of the game I propose to mark for deletion unquestionably is things like screenshots of the diary, pantheon rankings, and hero stats screens. The rules state this isn’t a hosting website, and generally, those kinds of images are mostly uploaded to share “hey, this happened” or “I’m number one on the Destruction pantheon” or “I’m rich.” So, those ones should be almost certainly deleted. Things like inventory screens etc. I can see keeping. There was one I caught after the fact but forgot to remove the template that showed some holiday exclusive items. There’s also what appears to be dungeon maps and strategies/guides (I assume that’s what that is, I’m 92 bricks until I can see that mechanic.)

I also agree that a warning (especially if this is a regular thing from now on) on the forums is important. I forgot to suggest that in my OP (despite alluding to it). If people on the site have a desire to keep their images, they’ll check. It allows us to prune the inactive images and old content. If you do put a message on the forums, you should specify that they should add their images to their user page or something so they aren’t marked for deletion. If they want to hide it there, you can tell them the 1x1 trick we thought of on your page.

I hope the moderators don’t have to go through a lot of trouble to batch it.

Eventually, I’ll be going through the entire File list for inappropriate images, copyrighted content, etc. and marking those accordingly. That’s... another day though.

Personally, and as heartless as this is, nobody has the right to complain if their image is removed since GV doesn’t ever guarantee it’ll stay, has provisions for removing images, and states it’s not a hosting platform. They can, however, get mad at us for marking it to be deleted (Especially me since I just went through and added 800 to the category).

Well, I guess I’ll call this Project Cleanup 2019 I guess, if this is going to become a full cleanup operation. I’m only one person, so, I could use all the help I can get anyway. Honestly, I had planned to do a cleanup of all three for this reason. No offense to anyone, but there’s a lot of old “junk” left around. It bugs me when I see stuff like that (especially with the unused reports), so... you know (;一_一)

Lastly, the image licensing we definitely need to pay attention to. I hate copyright law enough to know that some people and companies CAN and WILL take action against people for this stuff **cough cough** RIAA/MPAA **cough cough** (though those two are music and video, and our at risk files are mostly anime images)

Glad to help with all of this, though. — Emptysora (talk) 11:41, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

I'm going to gently but quite firmly argue again that material that's clearly directly related to Godville — screenshots, etc — has an implicit but clear reason to be here, regardless of whether it appears on Special:UnusedFiles. There are plenty of places around the wiki (Hall of records spring to mind) where a large number of players with zero experience (or interest) in wikis and how they work have simply made trial-and-error guesses about how to do stuff, and come up with some creative solutions that will mean files that are, in fact, in use will erroneously appear on that report. And that's not even to mention when people upload an image to the Godwiki to be linked from the forums, or in a private message, or in the discord(s), which does happen, and which is, in my opinion, a totally reasonable thing for a player to do. Because, in fact, why shouldn't people use the Godwiki as a place to put those kinds of images... uploaded to share “hey, this happened” or “I’m number one on the Destruction pantheon” or “I’m rich”? Proudly displaying your achievements as a God or a Guild is one of the Godwiki's most-used purposes.
Granted that the Godwiki isn't an image-hosting platform1, but if you're a Godville player, you have a totally reasonable expectation that it's a place you could safely put game-related material, regardless of whether you have 1) ever seen those guidelines or even realise that they exist (most don't), and 2) have the slightest idea how wikis work. And both of those are things we can continue to expect from the majority of occasional Godwiki contributors forever, as there's really nothing we could (or should) do about it if we want people to feel like they can use the Godwiki freely.
There's a reason why Special:UnusedFiles is separate to the marked-for-deletion categories. Any mediawiki installation would have use cases for images to be present that should not be deleted, and this is definitely one of them for us. Regardless of whether we like having things on that report, it is, nonetheless, simply a report, and doesn't always require action to be taken to "fix" it. 😊
Of course, I realise that this might mean that someone has to go through every file that's been marked for deletion and un-mark anything that is clearly game related, and I don't mind doing that work in the next while. 😊
Footnote 1: That wording actually comes from the bad old days, and in my opinion, we should actually rethink it with the above in mind. Because all mediawikis are an image-hosting platform, if they have any images at all. The wording is sarcastic, and was put there just to be a stick to hit people with (ref: {{Warning}}) if they uploaded something that a certain someone didn't like. The rule is sound in principle, but should reflect a more reasonable, friendlier tone. -- Djonni (talk) 12:09, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
I’ll go through it later, don’t worry.
My only comment is that I don’t think that just because it’s a screenshot of the game or directly related to the game, that we unconditionally keep the image on the site. All the rules state is that it’s not a hosting platform, things should be for immediate use, and content unrelated can be deleted without warning. Ie: it doesn’t say “Anything related to the game will always stay” (as silly or implicit such a rule would be)
What I’ll do is go through and individually find the applicable images and evaluate based on your comments so far, if they would have a use or would be necessary to keep. I’ll even search the forums (assuming I can actually search for links like that and automate it) and see if any are linked, automatically removing the template etc.. I’ll post here if I have questions.
I know why Unused is not called pending delete or similar. I never treated it as such (or else there’d be nothing left in that report). In such cases, we could still add them to a page like my dummy page so they don’t show up in the report.
The problem is that while some of the images MAY be in use despite being on that report, there’s no way for us to tell. We can’t just not delete any files because they could be used elsewhere. Things directly related to GV I understand. But, with other images, there’s just no way to tell. This is why I think a forum post is a good idea. At least then we gave people a chance to see if their image is pending deletion and potentially remove it.
Regardless, I think the rules are a bit too vague in this situation. They’re too broadly written. It allows people to interpret them too extremely. I kind of wish we had an admin’s opinion on this. That would certainly clarify some of this. — Emptysora (talk) 14:57, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Sorry if I’m coming off harsh... I’m half asleep and really need to sleep. I **will** go through them later and put the applicable files into a temporary purgatory of sorts.
Honestly, I’m playing devil’s advocate for the most part (just offering a counterargument). at least this discussion will allow us to not have to fuss about it as much. There’s just too many hidden variables with this.
From what I read, you feel that if it’s game related, it almost certainly stays (nearly regardless of the image itself), and that some images shouldn’t be deleted just because they aren’t used (that one... is hard to deal with).
Our main issue is the fact that we have nearly zero categorized images, we don’t know what any of them are for. We should start categorizing images based on where they’re located (into the appropriate existing categories)
in the very least, once we deal with the unused file report, in the future, we’ll be able to see which files were uploaded to be used on the wiki. This allows us to pretty easily determine what to do with most of the files. The uncategorized files we can, for the most part, assume are used elsewhere off the site (Eg: forums). This can allow us to make a better decision on what to do with those.
Ideally, the only thing I’d like in that report, is files that are new, or are not on the site for use on the wiki. (Or images that have since been removed with categories)
We just need to clean up the mess from “the bad old days” as you put it.
As for rule changes. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with allowing game-related images to be hosted. We should probably word it, “GodWiki is not an image hosting website. Images unrelated to the game, it’s contents, gods, and guilds can be removed without warning. In the event you do not think your image will be in use soon, please put a description with the image when you upload it so others that come after you know what you intended. Any content that breaks TOS can be removed without warning.” (Ie: be specific about what is considered unrelated content, and put a note to uploaders letting them know to describe what they’re uploading if it’s not going to be immediately used.)
For this first purge, I think the unused guild, god, and content images (Eg: monsters, artifacts) be included too (excluding other content related to the game like screenshots.) we then do a forum post so that people can pull what they want out (Eg: grace period of a month). After this, ideally, we categorize uploads so we know WHAT is on the report (since half the time it isn’t clear.) — Emptysora (talk) 15:25, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Heh, don't worry about it. It happens to the best of us me all the time, I often reread stuff I wrote when tired and wonder why anyone still talks to me, or how they could have possibly understood what I'd hoped to say. 😐

And in which spirit, I want to be more clear about what I mean, as I'm not sure we have ended up on the same page. I'm really talking very specifically about screenshots of the game, or of game material which was generated by Godville itself in some way. And there is a more general way to talk about this which might draw a clearer picture.

To me, it comes down to this: why do we wish to clear out old images? What's our purpose? It can't just be to clear the special report pages, or keep things "tidy". In fact, there's very little reason why one should want to do this, other than general fastidious (which I am in general down with, but not in this case).

The most legitimate purpose for clearing out old images is to prevent potential future problems to do with licensing and copyright. Because in the end, at some point, someone had a reason to put every single one of those images up in the Godwiki, and it's not possible for us to know what they were, nor if the pictures are still important to someone. So to remove any image we need to justify the choice. And honestly, the only justification I think is reasonable is a precautionary one against legal threats to Godville.

Material generated by the game or by the game's players doesn't pose that threat. There is, I argue, simply no justification for removing it.

Organise it? Absolutely! Find a way to better use it? No question! Find a way to take them off the reports, so those reports become useful again? Great idea! Delete someone else's contribution or achievement just... because we decided to? Nah.

What I'm trying to say is that simply not being displayed with [[File:...]]] (the report's metric for "in use") isn't a reason to delete a file. But it's absolutely a reason to take a look and figure out whether it's safe to keep. And if it's not safe, it should go. If it poses no risk at all, which includes any screenshots or game-created content, we don't have a reason to remove something that someone choose to put here. 😊 That's all I'm trying to say. -- Djonni (talk) 18:29, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

It's basically a case by case issue. I know I uploaded a screenshot that could be deleted because it have no use now (need to find it back to mark it). I don't think there is any good middle ground since deleting is kinda permanent. And copyright haven't been a major issue here so far thanks whatever (Gosh if would be drama if all copyrighted images were deleted).
There's also a lot of duplicate (guilty as charged for one...) that could be deleted without much thoughts. I'd tend to say that unused screenshot intended for the hall of records could be deleted, but well I can understand the objection of Djonni.
But, I'd object that objection by saying that most of the people who posted those unused screenshot are unlikely watching at them or at the Godwiki on a regular basis (far fetched argument I know).
But I also understand there is no emergency at deleting pictures, unless the devs says otherwise (when i need a pic, i try to search if there is something down there i can use instead of upload, like i did for {{Geography}}), it would just make it cleaner.
Categorizing the pictures can be useful I guess, but that's gonna be quite the monumental task. (And I guess we need to define those category firsthand). -- WardPhoenix (talk) 23:26, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Djonni I ask myself that question everyday... heh. I see what you mean. I’ll definitely add the categorization to my list of things to. I like monumental tasks. For the most part, we can use Category:Gods, Category:Guilds and so on for nearly everything. There’s no real reason to create new categories explicitly for images.
My reason for deleting files was never to clear out the Special:UnusedFiles report. That was simply the first place I looked through as those images were not in use (Ie: people wouldn’t care as much if those were gone through)
I understood what you meant by the game generated content. Yes, those generally would not cause us legal issues, but, there’s other reasons to delete things than just because of legal issues. As WardPhoenix pointed out, there’s duplicate file issues too. Aside from that, there’s also the potential storage space issue. I’m not sure how the devs are handling that one though, and since they haven’t said anything, it’s likely not a problem yet. We should ask them for their opinion on this at some point, though.
The general assumption I had when I was going through that report was that “since they were unused, the uploaders either don’t need, or want the images anymore.” (That obviously doesn’t work in the case of forum messages.) If somebody worked hard and contributed by uploading a file, you would at least assume they would want to show that file off. The fact that such images appear on that report defies that very idea. In many cases, people have uploaded replacements to be used instead of their original uploads (such as hero/god avatars, guild banners, especially HM, and some bird one I can’t remember the name of.). I kind of want to hear a scenario where this logic would not hold true for the unused file report (at least for the older images, and ones not of game content itself). I’m not suggesting people don’t care about their achievements, but that, in many cases, that doesn’t apply.
As WardPhoenix said, there’s no rush to delete the images (and I was thinking at least a couple month grace period for the forum post since not everyone comes on everyday like we seem to).
Sorry for the “late” reply, I’ve been dealing with some legal things these past few weeks (I alluded to it on my user page Monday). I’ve been a bit busy.
Ugh, this topic is getting long. REALLY long. For some reason the TOC doesn’t show up on the mobile skin, so scrolling to the “edit” link for this section, is a big hassle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Emptysora (talkcontribs) Thursday November 21
Hey, no problems, real life always comes first here. Everyone's among friends here, you take any time you need. As one of my old mentors here once patiently told me, the Godwiki will always be here. 😊 We all hope you're okay, and if you need anything, we're here.
As WardPhoenix pointed out, there’s duplicate file issues too: Yes, absolutely, there's some common sense actions that can safely be taken to clear out dupes, etc. 👍
there’s also the potential storage space issue: This doesn't concern me at all, for a few reasons. Firstly, it's not our concern. 🤷‍♂️ If the space used by the Mediawiki installation had ever been a concern for the Devs, they could have popped in at any time in the last eight years and nuked every unused file. They haven't. Not on Godwiki-en, nor on Godwiki-ru, which is much busier and larger than ours. Secondly, a careful inspection of the Godwiki deletion logs reveals that, even at times where deleting offensive images was necessary (and it's worth noting that that's the only reason an image has ever been deleted), they were very selective in deleting only the historical revision of the [[File: that was offensive, and leaving behind the pointless placeholder that was uploaded to obscure the offensive file. They have clearly demonstrated that they strongly prefer for all user content to be kept, even the pointless stuff, unless there's a clear and compelling reason to remove it. Y'see? We don't need to ask the Devs opinion on this stuff, we've got it demonstrated if we just look.
you would at least assume they would want to show that file off. The fact that such images appear on that report defies that very idea: Well, I think I've expressed my disagreement with this enough. 😊 The key word there really is "assume" — we simply shouldn't be assuming what those users wanted, or want, with the file. And we shouldn't assume that a correctly formatted [[File: is the only way the images have been used.
such as hero/god avatars, guild banners, especially HM, and...: I don't believe we ever really disagreed on that. 👍 Unless for some weird reason a guild used a screenshot for their emblem, which 🤷‍♂️ sure, if they did, I'd be arguing for it's preservation.
On the matter of guilds, though, it's not difficult to imagine a scenario where someone would be angry about this. Take: the newly elected guild leader, keen to revitalise the guild's symbols and wiki page for recruitment, goes looking for all the old emblems and banners for some retro inspiration, or to cherry pick the best to reuse. For the last eight years, there's been no problem doing that. We are about to change the de facto rules, to bring them more in line with the de jure, in a way that could, and one day certainly will, disrupt and frustrate people. It really is something we need to remember. Indifference to user experience has damages the Godwiki's reputation again and again, year after year, and we really mustn't repeat those mistakes
Btw, I'm not arguing that we keep all the old guild rubbish files. Just highlighting that the expectations of our fellow users need to be kept in mind at all times. Fair warning on the forums will suffice, for cases like that suggested above. Before we take this to the forums, though, we really need to develop a very clear and easy way people can rescue any files they want kept.
Okay, okay, I'm procrastinating because I'm having a bad day. Must. Get. Back. To. Work. -- Djonni (talk) 12:04, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Let's place a header here because duck scrolling

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I... forgot to sign my comment... oops.

Thanks for kind of understanding what I meant when I asked for a scenario. I wasn’t being combative at all (even though it probably looks like that), I just figured, if there WAS a reason, I just want to know, since I can’t think of such a reason. You make a good point about going through for past inspiration. Basically, I just wanted a counterargument to what I argued.

I think we should change our perspective on this. We’re currently taking a “delete first, ask users to save their stuff later” kind of thing. Let’s flip it. Instead of that, let’s “Save first, and ask people and guilds to go through their uploads to see what they don’t need/want anymore.” You’ve already shown that there’s far more scenarios where keeping the files is the de facto norm. Instead of trying to arbitrarily decide who gets to keep their stuff and who doesn’t, I feel we should instead categorize everything, and ask people to look into their uploads for stuff they don’t want to. The only things we will auto-flag for removal are: 1) copyrighted content (which would likely, and, unfortunately include memes), 2) inappropriate content, 3) and duplicate content (putting a redirect on the dup’s page to the kept file). User content isn’t a problem in most cases, I’ve noticed that most of the outdated user content is handmade, not from copyrighted material anyway. There’s no pressing reason for us to push this. Space isn’t an issue. Most of the content doesn’t violate copyright, and generally poses no issue. And, as a result, simply asking for people to go through their uploads, will get the so called “file purge” I have been devising, while not upsetting anyone (hopefully).

For guilds in particular, I think we should suggest that final authority on whether things like banners be removed be delegated to the original uploader/guild master/majority of the guild (Ie: that they use the guild council and forums to debate whether they need to keep their content on here.)

I’d say that we should stress that most of the content is perfectly fine and can stay, but, that, we’re trying to do something about the vast number of unused files, whether that be just to hear, “yeah, it’s not in use, but we’d like to keep it” or “Oh, that? You can get rid of it.” We all like this game, and most of us definitely want to see this wiki improve (I for one want to live to see the Special:WantedPages show a single digit red link count), so, if we simply organize this as a sort of “spring cleaning” I have no doubt that the interested parties will at least look through their stuff.

I’m going to start going through and categorizing all of the files into their appropriate categories. Files that can be categorized and don’t fit into the above listed auto-flag scenarios will be removed from Category:Marked for deletion.

After this is all done, we should write some form of guideline article for uploading files (reminding people to put descriptions, categorize, avoid uploading duplicates, etc.). We could even create templates to be used in the file namespace explicitly, such as a {{Quality}} template which could say, “The quality of this image does not fit the guidelines for images on this wiki. Reason: (((reason))). If you can provide a better image, please replace this file.” Or similar, (reasons can be, “Image has watermark” “resolution too poor” or similar).

Your thoughts? — Emptysora (talk) 19:55, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Created a working demo of the "FileUse" template. It's in my sandbox. example:
{{User:Emptysora/sandbox|no-category=yes|type=hero|god=Emptysora|hero=Sora Amasaki|hero-link=User:Emptysora/Sora Amasaki|hero-gender=female}}
Produces:
Picturecamera.png

This file is an image.

This content is associated with the goddess Emptysora's heroine Sora Amasaki. Please do not delete or modify this content without permission. To suggest changes, please add a topic on this article's talk page, the goddess's talk page, or their heroine's talk page.


The template uses the {{gender:[username]|ifmale|iffemale|ifneutral}} magic word to automatically detect the gender preference from the user's settings to decide whether to call the user "god" "goddess" or "almighty" (gender neutral). This setting is found on Special:Preferences the section titled "How do you prefer to be described?". I chose this example because it explains all of the fringe usages of the parameters in the template (namely hero-link). The template, as suggested by no-category=yes, by default, automatically categorizes the file into categories (namely: Category:Guilds Category:Gods Category:Heroes and Category:Backstage) Feedback and suggestions can be left on my sandbox's talk page.
Type currently supports: god, hero, guild, and forum. If you have any other suggestions for file uses, please tell me. I want this template to be as complete as possible from the get-go.
-- Emptysora (talk) 00:06, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
There is already an existing guideline for the upload file within the Creators Manual, it just needs improvement (I did my best, but obviously I missed some points when I rewrote that whole article).
Categorizing the image is ok, obviously. But as Djonni pointed, is there really a need to mark for delete except for unused obvious dupes and unused copyrighted content?
As for your template, as impressive it is technically (great work seriously), I don't see the point apart from polluting the file page (please don't take it bad, I know i kind of say that too blunt) and it feels a little... agressive somehow.
In theory, files won't be changed by people, unless by mistake or by vandalism.
The former will be worried about the warning and may takes it the bad way, while the later will not care obviously.
But as revert is quite easy it's not an issue. Basically, I'd say that changing any file upload by another user falls into Rules#2. And if the file is deleted, it will be by the Devs, who will never be wrong if they delete a file. --WardPhoenix (talk) 00:42, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
I don't see how it would pollute the file page. The purpose of the template is to provide information about what the file is, and where it is used. It presents this information in a clear, easy to understand, way. If you click a photo on a monster article and see said file, you obviously understand that the image is an image of a monster. Say you click on the "random image" link on the Main page, without looking at the file name, description provided by the uploader, and the pages linking to the image, it's impossible to tell what the image is. And, in the case of images on Special:UnusedFiles, all you have to go on is the description provided by the uploader (which is, in the vast majority of cases, missing), and the file name. Even if modifying files uploaded by other users falls into Rules#2, if all you do is look at the file page, and have never seen the Rules page (which is most of the people in this game), you won't know that.
The "Please do not delete or modify this content without permission" message is supposed to just tell the user not to make edits or flag for deletion without contacting the owner/discussing it. That's why it links to the appropriate talk pages. I understand the verbiage sounds aggressive, but verbiage can be changed. We shouldn't not do something just because the first incarnation of it can be considered aggressive and taken the wrong way. That goes against everything a wiki stands for: collaboration.
"But as Djonni pointed, is there really a need to mark for delete except for unused obvious dupes and unused copyrighted content?", I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. The only things I suggested be marked for deletion is duplicate files, copyrighted content, and content that is against the ToU/ToS of the site. Aside from the last item, that's exactly what I said (when I agreed with him). What I'm suggesting is that we call on users to see if they have any files or whatever they want to get rid of, before we send the request to the devs to do a mass deletion, since there's likely not going to be another opportunity to remove files for a long time. IE: I want to at least give the others a chance to get rid of anything they don't want anymore instead of just not telling them we did this.
While the "This file is an image." title may seem redundant, it's not because images aren't the only thing that can be uploaded (even if the allowed extensions only permit images). Not to mention, I simply couldn't think of what to put there. I can either remove or edit the message so it's not so useless, which is, again, why I wanted feedback.
-- Emptysora (talk) 01:21, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Cool template. :)
It's been a long time since I've actually set up my Godwiki preferences. Is the gender preference from the users settings automatically populated from their God/Goddess status, or does it default to something (hopefully gender neutral)? I would also suggest removing the link to the hero(ine) talk page, as messages left their won't trigger an alert to the user when they next visit, so 99% would never be seen.
I know that a bunch of image use templates are used on wikipedia and a lot of other wikis. They've never been used here, obviously, and I thing there's some reasons for that. My main question about the file use template, which isn't obvious to me... who is expected to be placing these templates on images, and when? And within 'who', I'm bundling in a question about how familiar that group of intended users are with templates, parameters, etc, and how they will find out about the template.
Is it intended to be a part of the spring clean effort, a way for people to mark their images as still wanted? Because if that's the case, I think it's way too hard to use (our target group there is likely to have very little wiki literacy). I honestly would think that simply removing the {{delete}} template from an image they want kept will be at the upper limits of what folks will figure out how to do. If this is the intended use, I would really aim for purest of simplicity. E.g., something named along the lines of {{Keep image}} with one optional unnamed parameter for the username, with documentation that recommends placing in pages like so: {{Keep image|~~~}}. (An {{#ifexist: User:{{{1}}}}} would catch cases where a username is manually entered.)
My biggest concern is that it will just not be used. Or, more specifically, that it will become another thing that we wiki gardeners will need to do on every uploaded image, just for our own benefit, in which case I wonder if we would actually take the time use it, switching between screens and copy-pasting stuff to fill in all those parameters with other people's information...? Does it offer us materially more information than the "File usage" section at the bottom? -- Djonni (talk) 10:42, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
In arelated vein, ref this edit comment: after said guilds no longer exist...? What do we do with these? Redirect to Main Page certainly isn't the answer
I completely agree, and it's something we've discussed a little (at Talk:Main_Page/Archive#Many_GodWiki_pages_need_to_be_deleted, which we should consider un-archiving as part of the spring clean). As you'll see there, I agree that the main page redirects are a terrible solution, and have already argued that those redirects should be removed, but we didn't reach consensus. It was a part of why I created {{Delete guild}}, and arged that these pages should go into a special Category. (I suggested 'Category:Dead guilds' at the time, but I don't think that 'dead' is the right word anymore, and would argue for 'Category:Guilds not widely known on Godville', in light of later discussion with WardPhoenix at Template talk:Delete guild.) -- Djonni (talk) 11:23, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I’ve seen a few edits by people who have done such redirects with the excuse “it’s not going to be deleted anyway.” Aside from how pessimistic or cynical that is, redirecting pages to Main Page without using “Delete” when, at the time, it actually existed, seems a bit... weird and arbitrary.

The preference defaults to gender neutral.

Ideally, I would like the template on all images (and I can rewrite it to make it easier to use for inexperienced editors). In other words, it would (hopefully) be something the uploader can just copy and paste into the “description” box when they upload (ie: in the same vein as the article infobox templates). It’s purpose isn’t to mark things as “to keep” but to show the purpose of an image in a clear manner. The only place I’d really say it’s required is when images are no longer in use, or images uploaded for the forums. Like with other other guideline articles, we can move the image guidelines to a separate, dedicated, article, and describe how to use the template. Alternatively, we can add a “Images” subheading to the guideline articles, describing a case-by-case use of the template.

Really, though, I don’t think it’s that important if the template is on the monster, artifact, equipment, and quests. Those are half obvious. The message is pretty redundant and unnecessary on those anyway, I only added those parameters for consistency with the types of images uploaded. Ie: I would only suggest putting them on guild/god/hero images.

What I could also do is split up the template into “guild-file” “god-file” and “hero-file” templates making the usage much easier (like we do with the already split guild, usergod, hero, and the other templates.)

The “File usage” at the bottom, especially if the files aren’t used, gives *no* information (and neither does the description in most cases). Anything the template says would be information that section cannot provide. Not to mention, this information wouldn’t disappear as soon as the file goes into disuse.

Though, I don’t see how the usage of this template really affects our spring cleaning. Like I did with stubs, if we ultimately decide to use the template (if even in a subset of files), we can remove the category references if we add said template.

Emptysora (talk) 15:37, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

As a side note, I've started categorizing the files. I started from most recently uploaded to the least recently uploaded. If you guys see new files on the wiki that haven't been categorized, do you mind categorizing them (that's why I started from most recent, I'll eventually clear through my 4,786 image backlog and then we only need to worry about new images)
I'm putting notes on my edits where possible, you all might want to read them as they contain ideas/suggestions, potential copyright issues, etc.. Recent changes only shows up to 500 edits, so to see all of mine, you'll have to go to my contributions. They're all in the format "categorizing: {categories} [(notes)]". Similarly to hide my file edits on Recent changes, you have to select "File" from the namespace menu, and check "Invert Selection".
As per usual, I uploaded the script I'm using to my website, so you can download it if you want. Details on how it works are on my user page. (all the way at the bottom)
I'm planning on going through roughly 500 images a day (might only do 300 today because of how late it is right now), so I should be completely done in under two weeks.
I quick overview of the script: Scrapes the list of files on the server using Special:ListFiles, provides a semi-automatic way to edit images. It provides a sidebar with a bunch of buttons that can add/remove categories from the page, and another sidebar that views the "Read" page of the file (so you can see the image/description/file usages/etc.). It removes the copyright warning in the editor so the "Save changes" button is in-view (less scrolling). It removes the "delete|unused" template call automatically. and automatically sets the edit to "minor" and the summary to "categorizing: [categories]" (auto-updated). Every time you save the page (or click "Read" to exit the editor), the script moves on to the next image on the site, allowing you to sequentially batch edit the files. (EDIT) Screenshot.
-- Emptysora (talk) 02:20, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
Touching this thread just to let people know I haven’t forgotten about it. I will get to this. Kind of been busy lately, sorry. You can see my user page for a more up to date status of this project (and other projects I’m working on). — Emptysora (talk) 02:42, 18 December 2019 (UTC)


Subpages for main namespace

According to MW:Help:Subpages, subpages are disabled for the main namespace. Should I submit a Feedback => Other asking for them to add the Main namespace to $wgNamespacesWithSubpages?

If we are going to suggest that guilds use subpages instead of not subpages, shouldn’t they be enabled...? I only noticed this now as I was dealing with HM’s main namespace pages and didn’t see the breadcrumb links. — Emptysora (talk) 21:43, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

That seems like a good thing to submit, though it may not be accepted. Since there are already subpages being used in practice in Main, the primary advantages would be:
  • Better breadcrumb navigation (or, breadcrumb navigation in Main at all)
  • Correct subpage moves if required
The only subpages I know of in Main are Guild (off the top of my head, ref. the HM subpages, Russia/statistics, TFL subpages) and some user pages in the main namespace (including my own Djonni/Shared sandbox... We'll see if the Devs feel it's worth enabling for those cases. With the changes to user templates that are being discussed and worked on, subpages with infobox templates may become more common for guilds. -- Djonni (talk) 13:27, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
Submitted~! — Emptysora (talk) 15:52, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

A Godwiki survey?

One of the thing I had planned at one point of SummerWiki 2019 was a poll to vote for best article. The idea was to make maybe people that didn't participate aware of the articles and make them read those and further if possibly. After all, people lile to vote anonymouse, so I though a poll would have been an idea to present the godwiki.

Soooo, I was wondering if doing an anonymous survey for the Godwiki could lure people there and maybe tell us why people aren't using it that much (or atleast not contributing much). There is thousands of actives gods and wey less active right here. And maybe with those answers we could improve the godwiki to lure more people in.

I have never done such a survey so well, if you thought it's a good idea, let's work on it together once more! -- WardPhoenix (talk) 22:58, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Random samples of questions

  • How often do you use the Godwiki.
  • If you don't use the Godwiki tell us why
    • Too hard to use
    • Don't see why I should use it
    • etc.
  • If you use Godwiki, do you contribute often to it?
  • If you don't contribute to it tell us why.
    • Too complicated
    • Not confident in english
    • Don't care
    • etc.
  • Are you aware of events that happened and could happens on the Godwiki?
  • What do you like on the Godwiki
  • What don't you like on the Godwiki
  • What you would like to see on Godwiki?
  • What do you think could be improved on the Godwiki?
  • Were you aware there are volunteers ready to help you with Godwiki articles?
  • Were you aware that you could create your personnal page on the Godwiki ?
Are you suggesting like a Google Forms or SurveyMonkey survey be posted as an alert on the main page? Since most of my motivation for editing is to make editing as painless as possible for other people, I’m actually completely on-board with with idea.
If we do do a survey, I would suggest making the aggregate results public (eg: announcing it on the main page).
We could also not do this as a one-time thing, but a recurring thing at set intervals.
I would suggest that instead of the conditional question for not contributing, we ask the question and then provide a set of “How much do you agree with the following statements” questions after it. Eg: “The editing guidelines are easy to understand.” (And others... I just can’t think of any)
I’d ask a conditional question “Have you recently posted a request for help on Help:Requests?” And if so, do another “how much agree” set. Like: “I feel that my request was satisfactorily resolved.” (Etc) optionally asking the name of the volunteer/for more info they want to provide.
Lastly I’d suggest on the last page we add an optional field asking for god name (should they want to provide it), and an option to perhaps request that we contact them...? Similarly, an “any additional comments” field.
I know I say all of this, but, the simpler the form, the better. Likewise, the less text and shorter the form, the better. I don’t expect us to do all of what I just wrote, I’m just throwing it out there. — Emptysora (talk) 00:33, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
I'm definitely on-board for this, with a few hesitations.
Getting surveys right is hard. Phrasing questions well requires a lot of thought, so let's not rush. I think we need to keep a few things in mind:
  • Any question that requires typing will cause some people to just stop doing the survey in immediately.
  • We don't have permission to collect personal information, and shouldn't ask for it. No god name fields at all, no personal information at all, neither the respondent's nor others' (e.g., editors who helped them)
  • Information from the community belongs to the community. All answers should be anonymous, anonymized if necessary, and then the data made available to everyone, once we check through to ensure there is no personal or inappropriate information included (all text that is kept would have to comply with the game rules, not mention any individuals or guilds, etc. Any response that wasn't suitable to be made public would need to be discarded)
There's probably others but I'm still working on my first coffee.
A cautious thumbs up from this guy. -- Djonni (talk) 06:39, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I’m going to start going to you, Djonni, when I have questions about privacy practices... heh.

But yes, everything you said is very valid. Maybe at most, on the final screen (very end) an additional comments field that’s entirely optional.

Surveys certainly are hard, my first reaction to a survey from a company I’m not entirely on board with (virtually everything aside from Mozilla/MDN surveys) is, “Ugh. No thank you,” if I am in a good mood, and, “Yeah, no. I don’t need more people tracking me and my opinions,” otherwise. The longer the survey, the more likely I am to abandon it too.

I mean, I’m not attached to the idea of collecting god/volunteer names anyway. That’s probably just useless information at best and asking for trouble at worst. I’m not even attached to having text fields. The “how much do you agree” kind of things are more than enough for the vast majority of the things we might be looking for. Using them results in less text the user has to read too, which should, if even just a little, raise the odds of someone completing the survey. The most successful surveys are short and sweet. Eg: “would you recommend us to a friend?” (Y/N), “why?” (Text), end of form. — Emptysora (talk) 07:38, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

A draft of what could be done as a survey. Updated the link for the draft, try to answer it so I can see how the results appears and give feedback about it if you don't mind! --WardPhoenix (talk) 14:45, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
Some informations from what I can see at the moments: there is possibility to keep the survey anonymous easily (just a parameter to check) and there is detailled results for each questions even, written ones. --WardPhoenix (talk) 14:20, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Pages marked for deletion tend to redirect here

I don't think this is a good practice. See this page for a list of redirects to the main page. --Uni34 (talk) 08:14, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Yup, I completely agree. The main page redirects came first in most cases, and were then marked for deletion. I argued for the redirects to simply be replaced with {{Delete}}, as I felt then and still do that those redirects are very disorientating for people especially for people who don't understand how wikis work. But this conversation happened a while ago, (I can't find it now) and folks didn't seem to agree with me, so I started adding {{Delete}} to those redirects as I came across them, leaving the redirects in place.
But, since someone else has brought it up again... I completely agree, redirecting hundreds of random unneeded pages to the Main Page instead of marking then for deletion with a clear reason was, I think, always a bad idea! I'd love to get rid of aaallllll those redirects if those here now agree that it's a good idea. -- Djonni (talk) 08:33, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
👍-- WardPhoenix (talk) 01:53, 29 December 2019 (UTC)