User talk:Djonni/Archive

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This page is an archive of old discussions from my talk page. It is by no means intended to close off the discussions if anyone has something to add — my talk page was just getting too long. If you've something to add to the conversation here at all, please don't hesitate. It will be seen!

Changes-to-changes to Talk:Main Page

Hey, thanks for taking the time to pare down Talk:Main Page and start archiving older discussions, it was sorely needed. You may or may not have already seen that I peeled those sections off onto a separate Talk:Main Page/Archive (and left a pointer in the first section on the main talk page). The main reason (the only reason, really) I did that was to facilitate new-discussion creation.

Both the "Add Topic" link in the tabs on top of the page, and the "Click here to start a new topic" in Spode's talkheader box, will automatically add a new section at the very bottom of the page, in keeping with the standard MediaWiki Talk-page model. Which is a good process and worth encouraging people to follow, so since having any other content at the bottom of the page (like the older discussion archives) interferes with that, I figured it made sense to again emulate Wikipedia (where, for the most part, their policies and norms have reasons behind them, and have grown out of hard-won experience, and lessons learned in facing all these same issues) and roll Talk archives off onto a subpage instead. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 20:40, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

I did see you'd done that, I thought it was a good idea and it wouldn't have occurred to me. Much better to keep the bottom of talk pages open for new topics.
In fact your addition at the top of the talk pages that you created an /Archive subpage got me thinking: do you think adding an to transclude Russia/statistics), from where guild members could include automagically up-to-date info in their Usergod. Not the whole guild template just dumped on their Usergod, obviously, that would get ridiculous, just the stats.
Anyway. I'm rambling. But it would be pretty cool, I think, to be able to make a subpage for each of your pets if you want, and so when they get retired you simply 'move' them to your {{Ark}}... And so on. These are still only fairly vague ideas for now, and they're big on cool factor without necessarily being features people actually need, or would use in practice πŸ˜† -- Djonni (talk) 19:30, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
My first step was making sure I could make the infobox work, as a child. I'll split it out to a generic template user:Sand Devil/TempleTemplate that could be referenced from anything else. Then keep the Sand Devil/Temple as my specific temple info so I only have to change info once, and affect the hero and god pages. Then I'll do the same to the pets, then the ark. By then, you should be doen with the Hero template changes. Maybe I'll know enough to help you with the guild or other projects. Maybe...--Sand Devil (talk) 19:57, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
Well, you mentioned (in a PM, I think) that you were considering working up a Template:Pet, I think it was. If you were to either do that in a sandbox I could also edit (i.e., not under your User:, so, for example, Sand Devil/Sandbox), or make it to your satisfaction and put it in the no-longer-used Template:Pet page, I could simply make any adjustments necessary for it to work both standalone and embedded.
Ah, pro tip for transcluding from the main namespace. If you do create Sand Devil/Sandbox, you use the colon trick to transclude it. In other words, you use {{:Sand Devil/Sandbox}}, not {{Sand Devil/Sandbox}}, because the second will look for a template at Template:Sand Devil/Sandbox, and fail to find one. (See note above about the Russia page to see the colon trick in use for main namespace transclusion.) -- Djonni (talk) 20:12, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

β”Œβ”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”˜ Challenge: do {{:Djonni}}, preview, and then figure out how I did that. ;) -- Djonni (talk) 20:17, 16 December 2019 (UTC) NICE!!! Much more elegant than what I had tried. Very nice... --Sand Devil (talk) 20:23, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Rewrite of Help:Requests/howto

Just finished rewriting Help:Requests/howto to be much more professional and flow better. Do you mind proofreading it? I’d like a second pair of eyes. Also, it’s really late for me, so I probably missed a really dumb typo or autocarrot complaint.

Thanks~ β€” Emptysora (talk) 08:59, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Sandbox edit for Quote

Just noticed your sandbox edit for Quote. I do think that the align parameter (that I added), does have a use, so it’s not exactly useless. And I’m pretty sure one of my edits actually uses the parameter (hence why I added it). I certainly couldn’t tell you which edit though. The parameter is more useful on desktop with small quotes that completely destroy the flow of a page. (Left aligning the quotes makes it flow better).

There should be a skill article that uses it.

Unless you have a reason to remove it (aside from disuse), I don’t exactly see why we have to remove it. β€” Emptysora (talk) 17:02, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Disuse was my only reason, I hadn't realised it was a new addition. I assumed it was part of the original design, and so had been available for ~ a decade without being used. Before starting the sandbox I surveyed every transclusion of the template on the Godwiki, and didn't recall any usage of the parameter, so sorry for missing that you added and are using it! It goes back in. 😊 -- Djonni (talk) 17:08, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
Thanks. I mainly added it because the following (when centered, which doesn’t seem to be default now for some reason...) looks atrocious on desktop:
Level 1
short quote
Level 2
short quote
Level 3
short quote
Level 4
short quote

That happened on one of the skill pages i was editing. It made the actual headers look like content, and the content look like headers. It was... ugly. β€” Emptysora (talk) 17:16, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
Actually, the not default thing might be a weird Minerva quirk now that I think of it.
EDIT (17:27, 18 December 2019 (UTC)): Oh yeah, it’s just a weird Minerva quirk that it wasn’t centered. Ignore my confusion there. β€” Emptysora (talk) 17:23, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
It must be a Minerva thing, yes. You'll need to be wary of that kind of work when editing on mobile in Minerva!
As for the sandbox, I've got it to minimum viable (as in, behaving like the current quote template, but in flexboxes, not a table), and if you are inclined to test it out, let me know if it behaves badly. -- Djonni (talk) 17:30, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

β”Œβ”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”˜ Yeah, thankfully, I don’t do much layout editing (especially horizontal positioning) on mobile. But, I know Minerva has its quirks. Table collapsing doesn’t work either in Minerva...

Honestly, until yesterday, I didn’t even know they had MobileFrontend installed...

In a similar vein, we should also be trying to make sure things work across all themes. I noticed some weird overflow issues in Minerva with the hatboxes yesterday.

I’ll gladly put your edit through the wringer later. I have a few β€œchores” to do this morning (and then the rest of the day I’m pretty much free). Hope they don’t take too long to complete. :) β€” Emptysora (talk) 17:46, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Well, the problems with layouts on different mobile CSS skins came up historically, during redesigns of the main page, and the conclusion was that the user fraction who would ever change the mobile skin is an extreme minority (my current educated guess is precisely one user) that can look after their damn selves. πŸ˜‰ Worrying about desktop vs mobile with default settings is hard enough with the rudimentary tools we have access to. You may not yet have discovered this, but you can't even use Special:MyPage/<skin_name>.css for customisation, as $wgAllowUserCss == false here. -- Djonni (talk) 18:02, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
Heh, one indeed. I wonder who that person could be? I figured AllowUserCss was set to false. Special:Version isn’t even accessible, which makes it difficult sometimes to see what level of β€œabuse” the wiki will take from you without breaking.
It is hard to test desktop vs mobile with our tools we have been provided, but I still think it’s important as it makes the wiki better. Out of all aspects of programming, my favorite is debugging. It’s fun to see what tiny mistakes cause the most bizarre errors. Fixing said errors is like a puzzle sometimes, and I LOVE Logic Games (I have Slitherlink, Tic-Tac-Logic, and Nurikabe apps on my phone, and they’re pretty much my only games on here.) and Puzzles.
Honestly, the last thing I want is the wiki to fall to disuse since it’s an excellent resource we don’t have to rely on the devs for. That’s most of my motivation for my edits: be more welcoming, make it easier for inexperienced users to edit, and ensure everything works regardless of what we do to it. It’s why I’m a bit insistent about certain things too, like the spaces in template calls. β€œI like godville, I like GodWiki, therefore I shall contribute.” (Me β€” My user page)
Despite the last paragraph, I currently do not believe that the wiki is falling to disuse, even if that was implied (probably). We just don’t get edits as frequently as other wikis. And that’s perfectly fine.
Also, for something actually on-topic, thanks for migrating Quote to flexbox. I don’t use flexboxes as much as I should. A bad habit from the HTML4 era... Another bad habit I have is using span + display:block/inline-block when the content should be in a div. β€” Emptysora (talk) 18:33, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
Ackshually... Since you've brought up about the spaces in template calls. I am, to be candid, really against that, but I've not brought it up as the changes were made in a huge sweep that can't be easily unscrambled, and I realise it's partly just an issue of misaligned (heh) aesthetics, but... Let me explain.
In short, it's just aggressively desktop-centric. I genuinely don't see the value-add in it, not when balanced against the awful pain it creates when doing anything on mobile. It's only a handful of the most frequent and active of us editors that use desktop at all, and for an inexperienced user on mobile (i.e. the overwhelming majority of editors) it's inexplicable and confusing why everything's strangely misaligned and weirdly spaced in aallll those templates.
I haven't brought it up before now, because, as I said, there's an issue with unscrambling the egg, but I think it's an idea that would be great on a different Wiki, with experienced editors reliably using monospaced fonts. But that ain't this wiki, and that ain't our users. I want to at least remove the extra spacing from the copy-paste example templates in the template docs, with your blessing. -- Djonni (talk) 18:46, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
Or, of course, throw it to a wider conversation and see which way the wind blows on the issue. I'm not precious about it, if I'm the only one who feels that way. πŸ€·β€β™‚οΈ -- Djonni (talk) 18:48, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

β”Œβ”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”˜ Honestly, after editing more in WPTouch (with its liability to ignore your preferred editor font), and with the fact the majority of the edits are on mobile + WPTouch. I’m inclined to agree with you. At the bare minimum, we should keep \n|_parameter-name_=_value\n. I’ll go through in my spare time and reformat them again, just, please, next time β€œyell” at me on my user page before I go through all of them (if you can), so we don’t have this unscramble a scrambled egg issue. I’ll try to bring my more mass edits up for discussion as well.

Another thing I would like to suggest is instead of camel case for parameter names (where we use them), we use the hyphenated method (parameter-name instead of parameterName) since the hyphen makes it easier to recognize there’s a word break there. Trust me, I know how much of a nuisance this would be to actually do. Also, on mobile, autocarrot is less likely to bug you if you use the hyphenated method, from my experience.

As long as the spacing and camel case is a thing, I don’t think readability will be much of an issueβ€”on all edit themes. I’d like for you to hold off on editing the template docs and guideline articles for now until we decide what to do. Though, if you agree with this (regardless of feasibility), or have a really good reason to be against it (your discretion, you don’t need my permission to edit), then just go ahead and do the edits. We can discuss the feasibility of this later, after all.

Reasonable method: dual support camel case + hyphenated, migrate pages over to hyphenated, remove camel case.

We really should have a style manual for templates, unless I’m blind and we already have one.

Another thing I wish we had is the visual editor. THAT would certainly solve a lot of these source editor user friendliness issues. Maybe we can do a Feedback > Other submission. Unlike CirrusSearch, Visual Editor is much easier to install. (As are many other nice little extensions I wish we had.) β€” Emptysora (talk) 19:22, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

I... don't know of any camel case in use in any templates? Neither for parameter names, nor recognised values. If you do know of any, we should definitely investigate and migrate as quickly as possible, but as far as I'm aware all parameter names are all lowercase and either |nospaces= or |hyphenated-words=. Camel/intercaps is not at all mobile friendly, and I would never design/allow camel case parameter names.
If you hadn't yet realised, you're actually talking to a professional programmer here. Work in mixed C, C++, C#, .NET, xml, Python, LabVIEW, building both libraries and applications for wide and varied platforms using some... uh... pretty hacky toolchains, much of which is custom. Other languages for hobby projects. I wear two hats though really, programmer by day and part-time English teacher. A uniquely apt combination for contributing to a pun-rich wiki, heh. -- Djonni (talk) 19:38, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
Honestly, I figured as much. While I’m not a professional programmer, I do have decent experience with nearly all of the languages you mentioned (and programming is my major). I’m also particular about grammar. So, the hobbyist equivalent...?
I don’t think there are templates here that use camel case. I just more meant in general, not using hyphens, I’d kind of like to see nospaces be no-spaces (which is more what I was talking about), but... β€” Emptysora (talk) 19:50, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
Ah, okay, I see. Well... that one's far more of an uphill battle, and less clear cut as to where greater beginner usability lies — though you make a good point about autocorrects. Trouble is that a huge amount of the metatemplates and infrastructure in place here now (and on almost all mediawikis anywhere) use nospaces parameters extensively, or exclusively:
etc. I think there are good reasons to use nospaces naming in many parameters, and good reasons to use hyphenated naming in others. I will usually end up with a mix.
In short, I think what I'm getting at is that in most cases that particular die was cast many years ago, but certainly, I agree that hyphenated parameter names are often the right choice. When designing {{Diarybar}} recently, I chose |background-color= over |backgroundcolor= because, well, obviously. -- Djonni (talk) 20:22, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

β”Œβ”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”˜ I agree with that too, I’m aware of what nospaces does internally. I just used that because it worked as an example for what I meant. Internally (like in metatemplate calls), I have no problem with the not-hyphenated version, since only more experienced editors will see that. In main space articles, we *should* (emphasis on should) use hyphenated names in all parameters/values, generally speaking. Valid exceptions include the nospaces parameter, and many fringe cases.

A more interesting case (and probably why I thought of camel case because of the numbering being like upper case letters), is in {{usergod}} |customheaderX= vs |custom-headerX= or |custom-header-X=. It’s a bit gray in this case since neither look that great IMO. I’m inclined to use the former (read, β€œcustom” β€œheader X”, as in β€œcustom” is a modifier of β€œheaderX”) but...

But yeah, I did say I knew this would be a nightmare if we wanted to change this. Yeesh.

Given I do a lot of programming in C# and JS, I have a tendency to use camel case, so if I ever add a parameter that is camel case... sorry.

I don’t think I have dyslexia (never been diagnosed), but I do have quite a hard time reading and understanding page sources when they’re not monospaced or if the words are really close to one another (worse if it’s a paragraph). A lot of of the template calls look like gibberish to me because of this. I just don’t interpret it properly, if at all. I mean, I know it’s a template call, but, it takes me like 7 or 8 reads to actually semi-understand the words. That’s part of why I’m being insistent about this. The hyphenated method plus spaces makes it much easier to spot where words start and end for me. The multi-spaces don’t really help unless I’m in a monospaced editor, unfortunatelyβ€”which is another part of the reason I’m inclined to undo it. The {{ordinal}} template is a good example of what I mean by hard to read: {{ordinal|1}}. Most of my feedback submissions involve accessibility issues for this reason. (Most of the ones I’m talking about haven’t been approved yet)

I’ll gladly help out if you want to modify and refactor templates. β€” Emptysora (talk) 20:50, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

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Hello, Djonni. You have new messages at Sand Devil's talk page.
Message added --Sand Devil (talk) 15:02, 27 December 2019 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} template.
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Hello, Djonni. You have new messages at Template talk:Quote.
Message added by Uni34 (talk) 10:06, 30 December 2019 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} template.

Regarding quote sandbox template

Hi there, short message to say that I noticed a little problem with the quote sandbox template, the firsts guillemets are hiding behind the firsts words of the text. --WardPhoenix (talk) 19:25, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for telling me straight away! I reverted the Template:Featured edit back to use Quote. I don't see the same layout issue, what browser/device are you using, and is there a way you could link to a screenshot for me? I'll try to dig into it. -- Djonni (talk) 19:32, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
There you go (hope link works, issue was on mobile view, on my good old samsmung S4) --WardPhoenix (talk) 19:27, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
An S4! My goodness! πŸ˜‚ No wonder editing the old List Of pages would crash your device, you've got about 5 bits of memory left on that thing, hahaha πŸ˜‰
So, I guess you're on Android 5 (Lollipop)...? Or are you still on 4.2.2? -- Djonni (talk) 20:12, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
Looks like it's 4.4.4 --WardPhoenix (talk) 21:30, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
Ah, okay, I think that's the cause. A change was made between Android 4.x and 5 to the software that is used to render a web page inside an app, and 4.x devices are still using very old and out-of-date renderers. I hadn't realised that devices on 4.x and earlier wouldn't understand flexboxes.
According to the Android developer dashboard statistics, about 10-11% of Android devices are still running versions below 5. I'm willing to bet that the Godville population is a lot more than that, though — I know the game is treasured by many using old devices because it's a game that runs well on anything.
So, I'll have to shelve the {{quote}} project for a while, or at least change approach. I may need your help with testing some alternative options later, as I don't have any devices running < Android 10 any more, eheh πŸ˜… -- Djonni (talk) 06:53, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Coding problems

So I'm messaging you about my code... I'm a bit self conscious and I try my best to make up for past mistakes (like not answering people when they tell me stuff on my talk page (Bad Luciolle24)). And to remedy some of those problems I've been studying the code from your, Darksora's and WardPhoenix's pages... I've come across a few very annoying bugs though... I've tried to fix some of it but some are, how do you say this... Persistent! For exemple the Quest template and my attempt at making my talk page a bit more User-friendly... As I'm thinking about creating templates myself, I worry that my inhability to work around my troubles with really well thought out code is going to prove I'm not worthy of putting developer on my User page... If you could be so kind as to take a few minutes to show me what's wrong with my use of the template (if you have time, I don't want you to feel like you need to do it... I really think you have more important things to do than look at my sorry excuse of trying to make templates work)... Yours, truely (I've always wanted to say that πŸ™ƒ) --Luciolle24 (talk) 19:56, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Ahhh, I might understand what's going on with the {{quest}} template... are you talking about this little bit of code?
|title=Lord of Lore
|text=Added lore to every page on the wiki.({{#expr:((24/{{formatnum:{{NUMBEROFARTICLES}}|R}})*100) round 2}}%)
|status={{#expr:((24/{{formatnum:{{NUMBEROFARTICLES}}|R}})*100) round 0}}
Firstly, your code there is clever, very nice work. The issue, I think, is that the |status= bit is just a shade too clever. If you just do:
it will look like this:
Lord of Lore
Added lore to every page on the wiki.(0.64%)
There's an (undocumented, I think, I'll need to improve those docs) feature of {{quest}} (it's actually a feature of {{diarybar}}, the template that draws the progress bar in the quest box) that's designed specifically to handle this kind of usage. It actually does the {{#expr: for you, if it detects anything more complicated than a simple number value.
Secondly, if the |status= parameter gets given a value <= 1, it will intelligently handle it as a percentage. I.e., if you set |status=1/2, you'll get a bar that's 50% full. So, the *100 isn't necessary, as the bar already handles that for you. Secondly, by including round 0 you're forcing the bar to round to the nearest whole number (which you don't need to do)... and so, if your value is 0.83, it rounds to 1, and if |status=1, the diarybar treats it as if it were 100%. (So that you could, say, put in |status=10/10 and get 100% as expected, not 1%).
Does that make sense? :D
Incidentally, you can also simplify the |text= expression. You have {{formatnum:{{NUMBEROFARTICLES}}|R}}, which can be expressed as just {{NUMBEROFARTICLES:R}}. :) -- Djonni (talk) 08:44, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
Thanks that help me a lot and ( if it's not too much to ask) could you help me with the code on the top of my talk page... I wanted to make it like yours but it seems it doesn't work on my page and on your talk page it just sends people to
{{Talk :Djonni}}
instead of
{{User Talk :Djonni}}
Luciolle24 (talk) 08:56, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
on your talk page it just sends people to Talk :Djonni instead of User Talk :Djonni Oh my gosh, you're right! That actually explains a lot, hahaha, I couldn't figure out why sometimes people would end up starting new topics on that page πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚ Fixed, and thank you very much for pointing it out, haha!
As for the one on your talk page, it's fixed now :) In this edit I put _ underscore characters into the URL to fix it. :) -- Djonni (talk) 09:02, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
Thanks to you too... Guess that's my edit for the day πŸ™ƒ... I thought I was dumb when I clicked on your link, made my code inquiry and looked up to see a giant DO NOT POST HERE, THIS IS NOT THE PAGE YOU ARE LOOKING FOR... well at least now everything will be working :) --Luciolle24 (talk) 09:07, 3 March 2020 (UTC)